The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace • Hacker News Board

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#141

Post by bitL » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:22 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #100

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

Unless your work output is very easy to measure, demanding you show up to work in one of the only ways to ensure you're at least putting in an effort for your employer. Of course, one of the hardest professions to measure output for is software engineers. I once worked with a guy who, it was discovered after a long time, actually had two Silicon Valley jobs. That he actually showed up at! He walked/drove between them…

I used to have 3 remote dev jobs at once. It was exhausting but doable; my problem before was that no company was utilizing me at more than 30% of what I could sustain and I was upset I was wasting my time. So I had one web dev, one Java and one Deep Learning gig in parallel. The only issue was with conflicting times of meetings. I didn't tell either company I was working for another but had a prior agreement that they wouldn't mind if I did unrelated work elsewhere as well if it didn't affect deliveries for them. I used the extra money I got to pay off my Top 10 MS in ML and MBA.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#142

Post by tick_tock_tick » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #102

yodsanklai wrote: post #55

I work remotely. I've noticed that one thing that make me work harder than in an office, is that I feel that I need to earn the trust that my employer gives me. In an office, sometimes I feel that just being there is enough to justify my salary, even if I'm just chatting with colleagues or browsing the web. I discipline myself better when I work remotely. Another thing that makes a difference for me: I suffer from ba…

> On the downside, I suffer from being far from where decisions are taken And your employer suffers from your lack of input in those decisions.

That may or may not have consequences for them but almost always will hurt the employee's career.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#143

Post by bitL » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #68

Since remote work seems to be the topic this article on async communication spawned I wanted to throw this out there for reactions. First off let me acknowledge that some people prefer remote work and also say up front I do not. I recent YouAreNotSoSmart podcast interviewed Laurie Santos from Yale and if I understood her research basically claims we often both individually and as a society choose things we think will…

I didn't like most of my colleagues in the office and beyond work we had not much to talk about; almost no "office friendships" survived when I moved jobs. OTOH I throw parties at home where I invite people I consider interesting. Remote work is perfect for that, do your 100% at work, then just forget about it and live your life for the rest of the day.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#144

Post by fizx » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

As someone who has gone to the dark side, there's an interesting tradeoff here. There's basically three scenarios:

(1) all employees are trusted and unmeasured, but you have to tap people on the shoulder every once in a while to confirm that they're on track. Naturally, this is easier if everyone is on-site.

(2) everyone is accountable for producing of tickets, and you can check that everyone is at least doing some work. Check-ins can happen via comments in tickets.

(3) Everyone just does whatever they think they're supposed to be doing, and the manager only finds out something is wrong when the employee volunteers the information or the project isn't delivered on-time.

(1) is the common case, (2) requires time and skills many managers don't have (and creates @#$% Jira commentary form the peanut gallery), (3) requires building an excellent team with years of mutual trust between them, and still goes wrong all the time.

Seeing you at your desk working, and asking a casual question or two at the water cooler is by far the easiest (laziest?) way to make sure things don't go too far sideways.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#145

Post by helpPeople » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

I wonder where they get productivity data.

An owner of a company I'm close with found her employee was abusing work from home. This same employee was formerly a Superstar or so we thought.

Maybe bad management, but I found myself calling a 7 hour work from home day 8 hours too.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#146

Post by diminoten » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #124

This is amusing. Not long ago I was in a thread about how to do remote work well and the top complaint amongst remote workers was "not responding quickly to IM" ( between remote workers). And the general sentiment was the expectation to respond quickly is greater in remote work. That alone made me not want to take remote jobs. At my current work place, my IM status says that whoever IM's me should not expect a respon…

Is it possible your approach to instant messaging is wrong?

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#147

Post by commandlinefan » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #2

I tried sharing these studies at my ex employers in Europe hoping they'd spare me the hellish 40 minute commute in stop/start traffic and they weren't interested at all. Management there only values "butt time in seats" and the ability to come over and interrupt you by tapping you on the shoulder whenever they need something. As one of my ex CEOs put it: "If I don't see my employees stressing out at thier desks I get…

Remember, we live in a corporate culture where people who have offices with doors that close praise the “collaboration” of the open office that the rest of us serfs suffer under. You’re dreaming if you think productivity is actually the goal: power is the goal (their power over you). If you manage to produce anything in spite of management’s best efforts to thwart you, that’s entirely accidental.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#148

Post by diminoten » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:34 PM UTC

twoquestions wrote: post #139

greggman2 wrote: post #68

Since remote work seems to be the topic this article on async communication spawned I wanted to throw this out there for reactions. First off let me acknowledge that some people prefer remote work and also say up front I do not. I recent YouAreNotSoSmart podcast interviewed Laurie Santos from Yale and if I understood her research basically claims we often both individually and as a society choose things we think will…

I find interacting with people who are forced to be there (like fast food workers/coworkers/bank tellers) doesn't really count for in-person interaction. Personally, I'd rather interact with people who are honestly there, and aren't economically forced to submit to me or me to them. EDIT: Wait, are you a manager referring to your subordinates? If so, you may have forgotten how stressful it is to constantly be submiss…

Just because someone is your boss doesn't mean you have to be submissive to them.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#149

Post by shantly » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:35 PM UTC

chucksmash wrote: post #119

throwaway9301 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting question is: "why?". David Graeber's book "Bullsh*t Jobs" is about that. These companies main priority is not efficiency and productivity. If it was, they could hire less people to do the same work and that would foster unemployment. They have a political and social role: hire as many people as possible. Keep them employed and busy and keep an eye on them. Become too big to fail and you'll be rewarded…

> These companies main priority is not efficiency and productivity. Still with you here... > They have a political and social role: hire as many people as possible. You lose me here. Most companies are out to make as much money as possible now or in the near future. I spent the first three years of my career in QA at a total BS Jobs company (120k+ employees, lots of government contract and enterprise software work).…

> Most companies are out to make as much money as possible now or in the near future.

The company in the abstract, sure. Not managers and VPs and such. Not even the C-suite, necessarily, or at least they likely have other concerns in addition to just the company making money. It's the principal agent problem plus the management version of résumé-driven-development, basically.

Re: The benefits of a more asynchronous workplace

#150

Post by myspy » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #68

Since remote work seems to be the topic this article on async communication spawned I wanted to throw this out there for reactions. First off let me acknowledge that some people prefer remote work and also say up front I do not. I recent YouAreNotSoSmart podcast interviewed Laurie Santos from Yale and if I understood her research basically claims we often both individually and as a society choose things we think will…

I have a family, wife, kids, and I prefer my remote job, because I can focus on them, not on the relationships with co-workers. The commute is another problem.

To fill up the social meter without a family I think I would prefer one or two days in an office, but similar results could be achieved at a co-working space or taking the time to make friendships locally and spend time with them in the evening.