Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible • Hacker News Board

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#141

Post by mikeg8 » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:04 AM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #29

yostrovs wrote: post #12

Does the ADA really apply and enforced at all publicly available businesses? Does every Chinese restaurant in Chinatown have a Braille menu? If we really start enforcing this, only larger businesses will survive.

It’s a myth that reasonable accommodations are too much of a burden for a small business to handle. Having a menu made into Braille for example isn’t going to cost a ton. On the upside, they would also now have business available that they didn’t have in the past.

After a few years in web development I began working for my dad’s business - we sell commercial doors and hardware and do a lot of work in SF. ADA requirements now force many restaurant to add an auto-door operator (push button that opens door) to their main entry. The total cost can be in the range of $10-15k for hardware, electrical work, union labor etc. this absolutely is a burden that some owners really struggle to afford so I’d argue the “myth” is very much alive. And I’m one of the people making money off this transaction. I have mixed feelings about it.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#142

Post by StanislavPetrov » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:05 AM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #29

yostrovs wrote: post #12

Does the ADA really apply and enforced at all publicly available businesses? Does every Chinese restaurant in Chinatown have a Braille menu? If we really start enforcing this, only larger businesses will survive.

It’s a myth that reasonable accommodations are too much of a burden for a small business to handle. Having a menu made into Braille for example isn’t going to cost a ton. On the upside, they would also now have business available that they didn’t have in the past.

The issue is deciding what "reasonable" means in this context, which is the crux of this whole debate. This lawsuit allows blind people to due retailers for their websites, what if someone was both blind and deaf? There are a range of disabilities that put burdens on businesses from small to massive depending what disability we are talking about and what sort of services are being offered by the business.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#143

Post by Firerouge » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:05 AM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #124

mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

I don't know if this would even be possible but, since you're a programmer and all, it would be cool if you built a small webapp/task-based game for people who aren't vision-impaired to try to navigate and experience the frustrations you experience every day. A gallery full of mystery photos, random buttons that needed to be clicked a weirdly specific way or don't work at all.

Just install a screen reader and close your eyes.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#144

Post by thomasedwards » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

Meekro wrote: post #14

If you're blind, can't you just call up a Dominos to order your pizza? "Talk to a human and order your pizza" sounds like a friendlier approach than the automated screen reader or whatever they'll come up with to resolve this litigation.

People who are blind should have the same access as everyone else. The web is accessible by design, so all sites that are not accessible are broken. The people that made them broke them.

Yes it works for pizza, but American Airlines charge $35 per ticket[1] when you call them to book.

[1] https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/optional-se...

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#145

Post by elliekelly » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:07 AM UTC

Firerouge wrote: post #143

elliekelly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this would even be possible but, since you're a programmer and all, it would be cool if you built a small webapp/task-based game for people who aren't vision-impaired to try to navigate and experience the frustrations you experience every day. A gallery full of mystery photos, random buttons that needed to be clicked a weirdly specific way or don't work at all.

Just install a screen reader and close your eyes.

Cool, I didn't even know that was a thing I could do. I suppose I imagined screen readers as some sort of expensive software.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#146

Post by thomasedwards » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:08 AM UTC

throwaway_bad wrote: post #97

Rather than crippling the rest of the world for the blind, why not improve the tools for them instead? Screen readers that are limited to structured inputs can't be the end-all final solution right? It would be shortsighted to set this tech in stone with legal precedents. Do we seriously want to require every blind person to be fluent in reading html/React as the default way to consume sites? We should be trying to i…

React/Vue/etc are all accessible. Almost all web technology that exists is accessible. The trouble is you can’t just do what you want, and you have to test it to ensure it’s accessible. Most companies put it to the bottom of the list or forget about it. It really isn’t that hard, no new tools are required, everything is already there: you just have to do it.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#147

Post by codyogden » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

toomim wrote: post #39

Meekro wrote: post #14

If you're blind, can't you just call up a Dominos to order your pizza? "Talk to a human and order your pizza" sounds like a friendlier approach than the automated screen reader or whatever they'll come up with to resolve this litigation.

Maybe they can just add a "screenreader" version that erases the whole page and replaces it with the string: "Call (510) 420-1155 to order a pizza!" And then they'd be compliant.

Be aware that not everyone who uses a screen reader is blind or visually impaired. People with processing disorders like dyslexia or reading comprehension disorders may use screen readers in order to intake the content/information in a way they can understand.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#148

Post by mltony » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

Sukotto wrote: post #108

mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

In your opinion, what major sites are doing it right?

Websites from big IT companies tend to be good: Google, GMail, Youtube, Facebook, Amazon, Bing.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#149

Post by kls » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

So somehow along my career I fell into accessibility dev for a while. Funny enough it was one of the most lucrative dev jobs I did and there was always plenty of work. It is easily outsourced to a remote developer because all you really need is a browser and a screen reader. In my opinion there really is no reason for even mom and pop sites to not provide even a base level of accessibility, it really is just setting tab indexes in correct order, as well as making sure items have alt and title tags so that the readers can pick them up and actively describe the page. No I am not saying that this provides a great experience for the blind but it at least helps them to be able to get around the site.

I personally an color blind, which is not a disability but it is a pain in the ass at times, especially give that color has the ability to convey data visualization in a rapid manner that is subconsciously parsed by the user. It's extremity effective if one can see color. It is kind of how I got into accessibility for a time. By simple adding a secondary reference of iconography for the color blind a site can convey the same info. (e.g if you show red put a small stop sign on it, yellow use a triangle etc.)

I see no reason why even the smallest sites should not be able to provide access to the blind, whereas larger sites should be striving to go the extra mile to make it accessible and easy to parse for everyone.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#150

Post by onion2k » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

rgoldste wrote: post #119

mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

Curious, not trying to be a jerk. For something like ordering pizza (or even plane tickets), how much worse is calling to make the order as opposed to ordering online?

Blind people are the same as everyone else, but with reduced vision. So when you ask "Why don't blind people just call?" you actually need to be asking "Why don't I just call?" Blind people will have the same reasons.