Earlier quoted context omitted.
before someone goes into a defensive rage... rms being a creep and particularly women at MIT going to great lengths to avoid him is well documented these remarks, while slightly distorted by the media, are still part of a pattern of dismissing sexual assault (including the way RMS insists on not using the word assault despite it being well understood that assault does not have to be physical violence) rms is the sort…
women at MIT going to great lengths to avoid him is well documented Genuine question: where is this documented? I have been using GNU stuff for 25 years and until now have never heard about this. Do you have links to reputable sources?
In Defense of Richard Stallman
141–150 of 681 posts
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#142> They focused on his tone deaf communication style and awkward demeanor. They spoke of behavior from decades ago and pointed out the fact that he had a mattress in his office. It wasn't just awkward demeanor. He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again. > He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused h…
> He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again. How do you know this? How do you know that he deliberately tries to make women uncomfortable? I don't think any women is comfortable near a fat, bearded virgin that eats things off his foot, but to accuse him of deliberately making women uncomfortable implies that he knows some of his actions are off limits and…
> How do you know that he deliberately tries to make women uncomfortable?
He doesn’t do it deliberately (probably). The accusations are only that he does it.
> I don't think any women is comfortable near a fat, bearded virgin that eats things off his foot
None of the things you just listed were part of the reasons they gave.
> but to accuse him of deliberately making women uncomfortable
Again – deliberate not necessary for this to be a bad thing.
In case you haven’t seen it and/or for your browsing convenience, here’s a link to the main set of actual issues in question: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi... (the fact that I’m linking this doesn’t mean I agree with every word of it or take its truth as a given, by the way – just pointing out that you’re arguing against a non-position)
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#143> blatantly lie about what was said, I've seen this said a few times, and it needs to be cleared up. Stallman defended Minsky by saying it wasn't rape and it was assault. To mount this defence Stallman had to ignore common English definitions for both words, and he had to ignore the legal definitions of both words. People are angry at Stallman for what he actually said, not what you think they think he said. If you w…
You're not clearing things up; you are contributing to the misinformation. Your unsubstantiated claim that "Stallman defended Minsky" really doesn't help, unless, perhaps, it helps train people to ignore what they read on the Internet about such matters. Here's what a proper newspaper wrote on the subject: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/sep/17/mit-scient...
It's literally in the first lines of the article.
> "In short: Stallman made some technically-correct-but-utterly-tactless comments on a private mailing list, mostly in defense of his late friend and colleague Marvin Minsky."
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#144> Stallman made some technically-correct-but-utterly-tactless comments
No. No, he didn't. He made some technically incorrect comments. Regardless of whether or not what Minsky did should be considered assault, it is considered assault, and (more importantly) it was considered at the time Minsky is alleged to have done it.
Stallman did not say that what Minsky did shouldn't be assault. He said that Minsky shouldn't be regarded as having committed assault.
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#145Sigh. No. It's not just about one incidence of some mistakenly pedantic comments, as has been made clear by many, many people. It's a pattern of behaviour over years combined with no interest in listening to other people or accepting that he might be in the wrong. His behaviour towards women in particular has resulted in a lot of people sharing stories of his behaviour which, on their own, should be enough for someon…
FWIW, this is from a wikipedia article:
In September 2019, it was reported that Stallman had made statements on an internal CSAIL listserv in defense of deceased MIT professor Marvin Minsky, in relation to Virginia Giuffre's deposition that she was directed to have sex with Minsky by Jeffrey Epstein.[117][118] As a response, Stallman resigned from both MIT and the Free Software Foundation.[119][120][121]
"What this is really all about" is wildly subjective for such a circumstance (not a legal criminal context with judge/crime). This might be what it's "really about" to some, like the activists campaigning for this.
For the institutions making the decisions (MIT, FSF) I'm pretty sure this is "all about" scandal. One highly visible scandalous statement. A pattern of scandalous statements. Rumour os scandalous behavior. Most importantly, the promise of further scandal unless you disassociate from him.
I think RMS is one of those judgments that people would make differently in public and in private.
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#146> They focused on his tone deaf communication style and awkward demeanor. They spoke of behavior from decades ago and pointed out the fact that he had a mattress in his office. It wasn't just awkward demeanor. He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again. > He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused h…
"He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again." You are making me feel unwelcome on this forum and your comment is unprofessional. > Yes, because of people like you, Geoff. When people like Stallm .... It's because of people like you that allegations ruin people's life. When there's nothing to prove, you are talking about what could have
Seriously I feel so attacked right now. Barrin92 is saying it is a crime to be awkward and people are upvoting it to the top. I thought people stopped picking on nerds after high school. Makes me want to kill myself to not deal with the anxiety of trying to make people like me.
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#147Our culture has made a very bright line decision that sex with minors is unacceptable. Expressing doubt about this cultural norm, or especially advocating against it, is considered unacceptable. Of course one can argue with the merits of those two facts, but they are plainly true and fairly widely accepted. The very concept of statutory rape reinforces how clear this judgment is. The reference to "statutory" means th…
> His actions just make him unqualified to be a leader. So you're saying that the only people qualified to be "a leader" are the ones who subscribe to your particular flavour of groupthink and no other? Nice thought policing there.
Yes, we are saying that only people who subscribe to the "don't rape children" flavour of groupthink should be respected in public discourse.
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#148> They focused on his tone deaf communication style and awkward demeanor. They spoke of behavior from decades ago and pointed out the fact that he had a mattress in his office. It wasn't just awkward demeanor. He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again. > He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused h…
> Yes, because of people like you, Geoff. When people like Stallman behave like they do and say the things they say they don't have to face the consequences because people don't want to speak up, because they're afraid of being called liars or censors. That's how authority figures and popular individuals keep getting away with it.
On the other hand, so far, no one has come forward to denounce anything (harassment or similar) about Stallman.
It seems to me that Stallman's lack of social adherence is the reason why he's being attacked. Not actual facts.
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. If Stallman was a charming, charismatic, handsome guy with a square jaw and good hair the whole conversation would probably have a different lens placed on it.
Then he wouldn't be seen as an awkward guy who doesn't know any better but instead as an arrogant dick.
Exactly. The conversation should be framed around what he did (or didn't) do, rather than how others felt around him.
Re: In Defense of Richard Stallman
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It wasn't just awkward demeanor. He actively made women feel unwelcome in the workplace and behaved unprofessionally over and over again. Every episode I read about fell into the category of "socially awkward adult male". If we can't, as a group, tolerate awkwardness, we are very much down the rabbit hole of mandatory social conformity. By all means, point me to a real abuse scenario by Stallman. I like being prove…
> Every episode I read about fell into the category of "socially awkward adult male". If we can't, as a group, tolerate awkwardness, we are very much down the rabbit hole of mandatory social conformity. Perhaps you need to read about more episodes: > I worked 10 years ago at VA Linux which had Richard Stallman on its board of directors. You might have heard that Stallman applied his open source ideas to his publicly…
I'm sorry for the specific request, but it must be a first hand account of an event. This second hand account can easily be the result of RMS being a difficult person to be around, for any number of reasons, constructed via word of mouth into a sexual issue.
I haven't read the description of anything that resembles sexual abuse by RMS.
(edited to remove an unintended reference to sexual assault)