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9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov

141–150 of 293 posts

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#141
post #34

Would that ruling mean that sites could no longer refuse to show content based on how they're accessed? For example, sites that won't load if the browser is in headless mode, or sites that depend on javascript as a way of blocking wget/curl.

I have a scraper for a site that used to offer an API for their publicly available site but removed the API with no warning. The info is still available to the general public, but only through their website. I created a scraper for the public page, but shortly after they switched to loading some public information through Javascript so my HTML scraper couldn't see it anymore. I ended up having to write an application…

> There is no reason why your page should refuse to load plain text without Javascript enabled.

Of course there is! It’s my site and I can do what I want with it.

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The injunction was to stop LinkedIn from blocking access while the case is ongoing, not to stop them from arguing that hiQ violated the CFAA. The trial court could hear the arguments and say "hiQ is wrong, they did violate the CFAA". Maybe that's not likely, but it also is not yet decided. So what exactly did I misunderstand and why do you think this is final?

I think you missed that this injunction is the case? You are saying "the injunction was to stop LinkedIn from blocking access while [the injunction request] is ongoing". If the court didn't think hiq had a strong case they would not have granted the initial injunction, then reaffirmed it on this appeal.

The 9th circuit uses a sliding-scale version of the preliminary injunction test. Because hiQ has more at stake, all hiQ needs is a serious question in this case, not a likelyhood of success on the merits.

It still might be case that hiQ has less than a 50% chance of winning in the eyes of the appeals court.

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#143

> LinkedIn has taken steps to protect the data on its website from what it perceives as misuse or misappropriation. The instructions in LinkedIn’s “robots.txt” file—a text file used by website owners to communicate with search engine crawlers and other web robots—prohibit access to LinkedIn servers via automated bots, except that certain entities, like the Google search engine, have express permission from LinkedIn f…

A friend of mine from grad school was very involved in legal issues related to cfaa stuff. According to him, weev really got screwed because he failed "the punk test", which discouraged lawyers from wanting to use him as a test case.

Curious question: what is "the punk test"?

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A website or server is property, just like land is. Accessing it is no different than accessing any other piece of property What if I placed a sign on my lawn which said "Please, step on the grass!"? Would it still be trespassing? You laid out a lot of opinions there as if they were facts. They are not. These issues are complex and are still being debated at levels higher than the HN comment section.

I don't understand your comment. >What if I placed a sign on my lawn which said "Please, step on the grass!"? Would it still be trespassing? No. Of course not. What exactly is your question? >You laid out a lot of opinions there as if they were facts. I didn't lay out any opinions. I relayed information that is available from Wikipedia and other sources and rephrased it into an HN comment. None of it is opinion. If y…

>No. Of course not. What exactly is your question?

My point was that it's hardly as clear cut as a piece of land and you know it. You posted a link to W's Trespass of Chattels, which I think is funny because it exactly proves my point. From your link:

>...several companies have successfully used the tort to block certain people, usually competitors, from accessing their servers. Though courts initially endorsed a broad application of this legal theory in the electronic context, more recently other jurists have narrowed its scope. As trespass to chattels is extended further to computer networks, some fear that plaintiffs are using this cause of action to quash fair competition and to deter the exercise of free speech; consequently, critics call for the limitation of the tort to instances where the plaintiff can demonstrate actual damages.

It is not at all clear that what we're discussing here is a clear violation. It's very debatable and the law itself was never envisioned to apply to scraping websites (because they didn't exist yet!) It also goes on to say (in the US)

>One who commits a trespass to a chattel is subject to liability to the possessor of the chattel if, but only if,

>(a) he dispossesses the other of the chattel, or

>(b) the chattel is impaired as to its condition, quality, or value, or

>(c) the possessor is deprived of the use of the chattel for a substantial time, or

>(d) bodily harm is caused to the possessor, or harm is caused to some person or thing in which the possessor has a legally protected interest.

The only clause there which even begins to help your case is the 'value' part of clause b and, again, that's very debatable.

> you can take it up with the courts that made the decisions that gave the information I posted.

Decisions made by court A get overturned by court B all of the time. We'll see where it lands, but we're not there yet (again, my point!)

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine from grad school was very involved in legal issues related to cfaa stuff. According to him, weev really got screwed because he failed "the punk test", which discouraged lawyers from wanting to use him as a test case.

Curious question: what is "the punk test"?

“Would this person’s attitude make them more unpleasant to work with than others I could be representing in my already limited time”, or something to that effect.

Someone who spends their free time hacking university printers to distribute white supremacist propaganda and is a proud member of the “Gay Nigger Association of America” trolling group would likely not pass.

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#147
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to physical properties there's a huge difference between reading a banner posted in a street and entering the property to read some secret data: you have to be in different locations. That's why your analogy is completely faulty. When it comes to PUBLIC data in a website there's no difference. How would I know I'm authorized, implicitly or explicitly, to access a website, say www.google.com? Should I ph…

>When it comes to physical properties there's a huge difference between reading a banner posted in a street and entering the property to read some secret data: you have to be in different locations. That's why your analogy is completely faulty. At no point is accessing a web server similar in any matter to reading words off of a banner posted in a street. You cannot use a faulty analogy of your own to describe why my…

A better analogy: Accessing a website is like calling up a business and asking whichever employee answers for information.

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#148

Considering the kind of private scraping and selling tactics LinkedIn has been chronically guilty of (and not just the ordinary "growth hack" stuff: "LinkedIn violated data protection by using 18M email addresses of non-members to buy targeted ads on Facebook" [1]), it's satisfying to see LinkedIn lose this. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/24/linkedin-ireland-data-prot...

I feel like this is a really common theme I've seen several times. Something like "Music Lyric site X sues Google for embedding their lyrics in the results directly" which is funny because site X got the lyrics by scraping them from other sites. Plus Google only exists from scraping content, but I believe their TOS includes "don't scrape our content". I find it really funny that the scrapers are battling scrapers - l…

> Plus Google only exists from scraping content, but I believe their TOS includes "don't scrape our content".

Yes. This is EXTREMELY frustrating.

Of all companies to prevent scraping, Google is the most ironic.

Especially since their goal is to organize the world's information, it shocks me that there's no way to get access to this organized information from machine to machine.

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#149
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until the ADA comes along and demands you create an accessible to the blind site. I've often wondered when the laws would start to be applied and I think its coming

I have a website that's a full page map. I care about accessibility - is there any way I can make this meaningfully accessible to the blind?

Look at WCAG 2 (web content accessiblity guidelines) they specify tags and elements common screen readers will understand to help make you site accessible.

This is a really good resource: https://accessibility.18f.gov/

A lot of frameworks now have some accessiblity built in if you add the correct attributes.

Re: 9th Circuit holds that scraping a public website does not violate the CFAA [pdf]

#150

This is actually bad, would not it be better if sites would be allowed to block crawlers? I don't see what is the legal basis for forbidding to ban scrapers. Is there a law that a site must serve pages for anyone?

You can redefine what is 'public', or require login to see those information anyway.

If anything, the ruling could just push websites to hide information even deeper.

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