Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd • Hacker News Board

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#141

Post by alex7o » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #106

eythian wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pulse has been fine for ... I dunno, a decade or so now. I remember when it was problematic, and then one day I discovered I could do things like send sound to other computers, control different applications independently, turn on bluetooth headphones and just have them work. All the sort of things you'd expect a modern sound system (which ALSA certainly is not) to be able to do without having to edit configs or what…

Unless you use your computer for more than just consumption and you find out that latency wise pulseaudio absolutely sucks. And then you install jack, a bridge from pulse to jack and a whole raft of other fixes to be able to use the same desktop for regular work and audio work. My main gripe with anything from that group of people is that they refuse to play nice with others, and by extension that their code refuses…

When don't we just use jack without pulse audio, most programs support it (VLC,MPV).

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#142

Post by delfinom » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

tdewitt wrote: post #104

aeyes wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list in the Linux desktop world is honestly pretty long and could be extended at will. Some examples: Wayland, GNOME 3, KDE Plasma, Nvidia drivers, PulseAudio, DBus

Wayland is nearly vaporware, gnome 3 is optional, kde plasma is optional, nvidia drivers are optional and have functional FOSS replacements, pulse I'll grant you (and hope you see the irony) and dbus I can't honestly comment on because the little direct interaction I've had with it was fine but mostly I don't think about it. The flaw with your list is that half of it is optional and anyone who doesn't like those thin…

I on the other hand have had good experiences on servers with systems. The services system has most of the basic needs for simple applications in a common way. Compared to init.d where everyone was rolling their own script in absurd ways.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#143

Post by csande17 » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

cesarb wrote: post #132

segmondy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's saying I want things that stick to the Unix philosophy of simplicity, clarity and text formats with no hidden magic.

Aren't systemd units simple text files with no hidden magic? In fact, all systemd configuration is plain text files and symbolic links. The only binary format is the journal.

> Aren't systemd units simple text files with no hidden magic?

Compared to something like a shell script, systemd unit files are magic because you have to know a lot about how systemd works to figure out how your config file translates into actual behavior.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#144

Post by delfinom » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

ses1984 wrote: post #103

ldng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is exactly the marketing card that have been played. The dev out numbers the sysadmin and ask for SystemD. Then it's to the sysadmin to live with the numerous bugs and non-standard and hardly documented ways of the Beast.

Honestly there have been zero angry sysadmins in the picture. Actually very few if any sysadmins in the picture since 2016. Anything I touch that requires sysadmins is outsourced one way or another, either via managed services like rds or in house dbas. If aws or in house dbas have strong opinions about systemd it doesn't impact me.

Yea, sysadmin is a shrinking job field. Dev ops is eating heavily with what they used to do with config driven management of servers be it kubernetes, docker, terraform, puppet, etc.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#145

Post by darpa_escapee » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

doiwin wrote: post #90

Everything I know about systemd is bad. When I want to write a script that runs on startup, I expect that I can just put (or link) it in some directory where the scripts are that get started on startup. Or that there is one main script that calls all scripts that are intended to be startet on startup. I do not want to write a "service" that has some "only run once and then discard" flag or whatever. When I want to lo…

> I do not want to write a "service" that has some "only run once and then discard" flag or whatever.

Then just use cron.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#146

Post by joshbaptiste » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #58

jrugk wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The trend to get rid of systemd and its metastasis into most of Linux is excellent news. I don't know where you're seeing this trend, really. For all major distros, it's been the opposite thus far.

However it's slowing changing. Knoppix has always been seen as a trend setter, and it still has a large influence where it matters - open source maintainers that are not corporate-driven (i.e. Debian).

Exactly, I actually thought Knoppix was abandoned .. The current trend setters I would say are Arch/Nix/Alpine/Ubuntu and their derivatives.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#147

Post by gabrielblack » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

znpy wrote: post #3

I see a lot of hate about systems and I used to loathe it too. Then I took a course on systemd specifically and it opened my eyes, and now I'm quite fond about it. Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. It's the missing layer between kernel space and user space. It has quirks and bugs like all software, but I think it works very well, all things considered. To those who say that it's…

> it manages the system

No, really. I, the system administrator, manage the system(s). Does Systemd make my life easy ? No, again. It's something I have to deal for. If I could, I would follow the example of Knoppix.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#148

Post by giancarlostoro » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

delfinom wrote: post #139

izacus wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One can make all the arguments for it they want but the continued public comtempt means something. It means that Linux community is full of people that refuse to give up on their gripes even after years. Those also tend to be the people who refuse to understand that "the old way" might not be the best way to do something and also fail to produce a viable alternative. Linux audio was not usable for end users until P…

The inability to let is why we also have an insane number of distros that continue to fragment Linux. While diversity of ideas is good, it kills user adoption by anything other than techies.

On the other hand it indirectly educates people as to how modular a Linux distribution can be.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#149

Post by sverige » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

afranchuk wrote: post #114

I am a bit surprised that they (seemingly? not clear in the article) went back to sysv init rather than exploring other options. I assume they just wanted to go back to something with which they were very familiar (and for which they probably already had scripts). But after going to void linux, I've found runit [1] to be an excellent init system. I was able to sit down and read the documentation in under an hour and…

Knopper wrote his own init system called "knoppix-autoconfig" according to DistroWatch. [0] That information is not included in the release notes, though.

[0] https://distrowatch.com/index-mobile.php?distribution=knoppi...

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#150

Post by joshbaptiste » Sun, Sep 01, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

nickserv wrote: post #15

mepian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's okay to flaunt your ignorance if you can claim that your peers are ignorant as well, I guess. Knoppix was one of the first, if not the first, popular live CD distributions.

The other day at the office, I was the only one that had heard of, let alone used, Slackware. I am also the oldest in the team, this is probably no coincidence.

I started my Linux journey in ~2002 with Slackware to get ipchains ip masquerade (nat) working for multiple machines to share a modem connection. Today I prefer Arch or Debian but Slack will always be that first that popped the cherry.