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Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

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141–150 of 328 posts

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#141
post #3

It seems like we could save a lot of pointless expenditure on an ultimately meaningless arms race in flash trading if we imposed reasonable limits on the time required to hold an equity in order for a trade to be legally recognized.

But why? Who is the victim here?

Who pays the $100M? Yes, the customer of the bank, of course. Which usually means you and me are paying in the end.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#142

"Using so-called microservices to break complicated problems into easy-to-solve ones" I would love to see microservices which actually solve problems and reduce complexity! :(

Complexity is never reduced, but made more manageable. Microservices make a good architecture a lot harder, certainly if you have to start with a blank slate and don't really have an idea what you're up against.

However, things that are virtually impossible to enforce or even very hard to implement in a monolith, are made manageable if you have the proper setup. That includes central standardised logging, tracing, metrics and monitoring. If you have these in place and can enforce them, you're off to a good start.

These things rarely happen in a v1 though - which usually is a POC that ends up in production, and if you have a full-blown microservice architecture from the start, this will probably grow into something a lot worse than huge PHP monolith. With microservices you need to design a 'platform', and ad-hoc POC development never results in a good design, but just something that functionally works.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#143
post #139
post #110

Markets around the world are determining prices on a massive variety of instruments that derive value from the current and future value of products such as currencies, interest rates, equities, grains, livestock, metals, oil, gasoline, natural gas, and electricity. These prices allow us to prioritize resources, make fair transactions, and manage risk (i.e. buy insurance on the value of critical products so that we ca…

The theory sounds great. But why then, our streets are lined with homeless, and our nations are stricken with poverty? Could it be that the only real aim and motivation of market traders is to earn money? One day, maybe.... when these are replaced with DAOs on the blockchain. But until then it's the Wolf of Wall Street.

The markets on which financial instruments are traded are effectively separate from the ones where policy decisions are being made on, such as labour, vocational education, and healthcare. It's not the derivatives trading that is problematic, it's the market inefficiencies not being resolved by governments.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#144
post #110

Markets around the world are determining prices on a massive variety of instruments that derive value from the current and future value of products such as currencies, interest rates, equities, grains, livestock, metals, oil, gasoline, natural gas, and electricity. These prices allow us to prioritize resources, make fair transactions, and manage risk (i.e. buy insurance on the value of critical products so that we ca…

Is there any empirical evidence that these perceived benefits to society actually ever materialize? It's clear that there is a benefit to a trader from knowing something milliseconds before the rest of the market (otherwise Goldman wouldn't be doing this), but it's not clear at all to me that it helps the rest of us.

We know, empirically, that a lack of liquidity increases trading costs, which in turn is directly channeled to the prices of goods and services that rely on this liquidity (more or less everything in the world, even more indirectly ones like education).

It's difficult to say 'things would be X% more expensive' because of the interconnected complexity the GP was talking about, but there is definitely a very apparent benefit.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#145
post #58

"Using so-called microservices to break complicated problems into easy-to-solve ones" I would love to see microservices which actually solve problems and reduce complexity! :(

I am curious how that will help latency here. It must be pretty bad if refactoring and adding more network connections is an improvement.

Only thing that I can think of is that it would make it easier to detect the bottlenecks. Other than that, certainly in high-frequency trading - I only see it adding latency.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#146

"Using so-called microservices to break complicated problems into easy-to-solve ones" I would love to see microservices which actually solve problems and reduce complexity! :(

Complexity is never reduced, but made more manageable. Microservices make a good architecture a lot harder, certainly if you have to start with a blank slate and don't really have an idea what you're up against. However, things that are virtually impossible to enforce or even very hard to implement in a monolith, are made manageable if you have the proper setup. That includes central standardised logging, tracing, me…

Agreed. You missed db syncing, container orchestration, deployments, sharding, DEBUGGING and some sweet sweet anxiety attacks!

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#147
post #93

People love to rail on HFT, but at this point, its really not that profitable. It's just a reality of trading in the markets. There was a blip of time between 2008 and 2014 when HFT was extremely profitable. Those inefficiencies have been gone from the market for years. People were whooped into anger about how much money was being made, at this point its a complete non issue and needs to be removed from the highlight…

>People love to rail on HFT probably because it's difficult to see any actual value that this provides to society.

So what? Poker doesn’t provide any value to society, but if other people want to play it, how is that hurting me?

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#148
post #139
post #110

Markets around the world are determining prices on a massive variety of instruments that derive value from the current and future value of products such as currencies, interest rates, equities, grains, livestock, metals, oil, gasoline, natural gas, and electricity. These prices allow us to prioritize resources, make fair transactions, and manage risk (i.e. buy insurance on the value of critical products so that we ca…

The theory sounds great. But why then, our streets are lined with homeless, and our nations are stricken with poverty? Could it be that the only real aim and motivation of market traders is to earn money? One day, maybe.... when these are replaced with DAOs on the blockchain. But until then it's the Wolf of Wall Street.

Because having homeless people lining our streets on our commutes to/from our jobs is a daily reminder that if we don't work hard enough to increase corporate profits, then our bosses might lay us off and we'll end up like them.

That or moral apathy. At some point in the 80s we decided that markets driven by business profits should dictate every aspect of society.

I imagine 100 years from now they'll look back at today in disgust.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#149
post #110

Markets around the world are determining prices on a massive variety of instruments that derive value from the current and future value of products such as currencies, interest rates, equities, grains, livestock, metals, oil, gasoline, natural gas, and electricity. These prices allow us to prioritize resources, make fair transactions, and manage risk (i.e. buy insurance on the value of critical products so that we ca…

The upshot of this argument is that this is valuable activity. We need markets to price tradable assets and provide liquidity. The counterargument is that there are diminishing and/or negative returns to increased liquidity and velocity. Take just stocks. Liquidity is not a problem. You have liquidity whether trades take minutes or milliseconds. Pricing? I'd say we have pricing covered too, at least the pricing that…

My view is that current liquidity and pricing are far from perfect, particularly when it matters most (e.g. a market panic) and particularly in the global context of the vast universe of interrelated instruments that need better relative pricing. Given that we benefit from realtime pricing, milliseconds matter when you must determine a large vector of prices with complex dependencies using the ensemble recursive system that is the global market.

Re: Goldman Sachs is spending $100M to shave milliseconds off stock trades

#150
post #110

Markets around the world are determining prices on a massive variety of instruments that derive value from the current and future value of products such as currencies, interest rates, equities, grains, livestock, metals, oil, gasoline, natural gas, and electricity. These prices allow us to prioritize resources, make fair transactions, and manage risk (i.e. buy insurance on the value of critical products so that we ca…

Is there any empirical evidence that these perceived benefits to society actually ever materialize? It's clear that there is a benefit to a trader from knowing something milliseconds before the rest of the market (otherwise Goldman wouldn't be doing this), but it's not clear at all to me that it helps the rest of us.

Business produces goods and services.

Finance is an online multiplayer game.

They are two weakly-connected systems.

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