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You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

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Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#141

Post by y_molodtsov »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #126
fhood wrote: post #19

As an end user I approve of the walled garden. I don't mind the limitations on other forms of payment. I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions, and I like the freedom and ease of use that comes with knowing that apps on the ios store went through a fairly substantial review process. As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and librarie…

Apple has a profit margin of 37%. 2017 the App store revenue was ~50 billion, which means Apple made 15 billions from fees. Their net income was ~50 billion, too, which means 0 App store fees would reduce their profits by 30%. Not sure if all numbers are correct, but I guess this should give us a ballpark feeling of what we are talking about.

Putting together margins on their hardware and software products just can’t be right.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#142

Post by y_molodtsov »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #67
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #5

> Here’s the thing: If you’re a developer for iOS or macOS and want to charge customers money, the Apple-provided payment tools, which demand a 30% cut, are the only ones you’re allowed to use. It’s not even a discussion. Why does macOS keep getting offhandedly roped into these discussions? Not only is the Mac App Store not a requirement, it's rarely used. Maybe Apple intends to change that some day, but that's specu…

Probably because part of the ios appeal is the insanely smooth interoperation between your mac laptop, your appple watch, and your iphone. If you already have a mac because, say, your work got you one (which in the tech industry is ludicrously common) then getting an iphone if you're shopping for a new device makes a whole lot of sense.

And? Tons of apps on MacOS aren’t in the AppStore.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#143

Post by sgjohnson »

vbezhenar wrote: post #43
nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

> I don't want to be forced to trust every company with my credit card information This problem is solved with Paypal.

I don’t actually care. The cardmembers are never liable for fraud.

I don’t use my debit card for online purchases at all however. If someone steals that and uses it, I’m out of pocket until the bank resolves it, which can take days.

With credit cards, and Amex especially, they’ll simply reverse the fraudulent transactions and overnight you a new card.

Someone skimmed my Amex when I was on a vacation in Japan, charged about ¥700k on it. One call to them, they froze the transactions and in roughly 16 hours I collected a new card in the hotel lobby.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#144

Post by sfkdjf9j3j »

swebs wrote: post #81
fhood wrote: post #19

As an end user I approve of the walled garden. I don't mind the limitations on other forms of payment. I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions, and I like the freedom and ease of use that comes with knowing that apps on the ios store went through a fairly substantial review process. As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and librarie…

>But 30% is really, really high Interestingly, that's about the average income tax rate. I wonder if Apple and Uncle Sam both independently came to the same conclusion that that's the highest amount that they can get away with without hitting the tipping point.

Where did you get that average income tax rate figure from? It seems high. But regardless, because of the U.S.'s income disparity, I don't think looking at an average here is a meaningful comparison.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#145

Post by baud147258 »

pathartl wrote: post #102
Crinus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an issue on game consoles too, just because it has somehow become accepted it doesn't mean it isn't an issue that you cannot run whatever you want on your own hardware. "Others are doing too" isn't much of an excuse. Also note that it isn't all game consoles, there are various open game consoles, though since they are not made by huge companies with huge marketing budgets they are not as popular (perhaps Atari'…

It's almost as if there is a very large hacking scene for game consoles because people want to run whatever they can on the hardware they bought. Let's also not forget the whole Other OS fiasco with the PS3. I'm sure if the next Xbox had the ability to run Windows 10 it would sell like crazy.

> I'm sure if the next Xbox had the ability to run Windows 10 it would sell like crazy.

Or even better if it was a true OS, like Windows 7.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#146

Post by craftyguy »

cgriswald wrote: post #95
banachtarski wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? I'm a console developer. I can use any PC I want to deploy software to the console. I can use Intel, AMD, or any other x86 compatible chip (mainly because I don't want to deal with the headache of cross compiling). I can even choose the compiler I use and the IDE. Sure the debuggers they ship run on Windows, but that's just the tools they know how to write, and they are damn good tools. iOS in comparison is dow…

The people down-voting and arguing with you are missing the point entirely.[0] Yes, console makers have monopoly stores on their platforms. Even if you include physical copies, because of the licensing platforms, it's still the same basic idea. (They're also criticized by some for these reasons.) The difference is that those platforms are not using those quasi-monopolies as leverage to force developers to use their t…

> [0] - The down-voters seem only to disagree with you. That's not what a down-vote is for, and voting this way actively harms the discussion.

...

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#147

Post by mikl »

banachtarski wrote: post #49
nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

What? I'm a console developer. I can use any PC I want to deploy software to the console. I can use Intel, AMD, or any other x86 compatible chip (mainly because I don't want to deal with the headache of cross compiling). I can even choose the compiler I use and the IDE. Sure the debuggers they ship run on Windows, but that's just the tools they know how to write, and they are damn good tools. iOS in comparison is dow…

If you use a cross-platform tool like Xamarin or Unity, the only step of the development process that requires macOS is the publishing-to-app-store - and debugging on actual iOS hardware, if need be.

So it's not that bad, you can do most of your everyday work on whatever OS you prefer.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#148

Post by craftyguy »

lukifer wrote: post #139
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish game consoles were open, but I don't care as much because they're single purpose. A PS4 is not designed to be your primary computer. An iPhone, by contrast, will be many people's primary or even they're only computer. What does it mean for our society if a single company has control over what that computer can display? I see this issue as broader than just competition—I think it's analogous to free speech.

There is a moral/philosophical connection to free speech and the app store pseudo-monopolies (code as speech), but it also happens to be very concrete in Apple's case: you literally cannot tell customers through your app what other alternatives might be used to pay you. (And before someone comments about how this doesn't conflict with the 1st Amendment, you are obviously correct; but free speech is as much a societal…

> but free speech is as much a societal value as a legal construct, and is not limited to the Bill of Rights as its sole champion.)

Where, in the US, is the requirement that everyone has to let anyone say anything enshrined? AFAIK, it's not, and is (very) often confused with the Bill of Rights version.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#149

Post by ramses0 »

lancesells wrote: post #124
swebs wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But 30% is really, really high Interestingly, that's about the average income tax rate. I wonder if Apple and Uncle Sam both independently came to the same conclusion that that's the highest amount that they can get away with without hitting the tipping point.

It's not Apple it's everyone. Sell an eBook on Amazon - 35 to 70% royalty. I'm sure there are some outliers but most are right in that range. I think physical products seem to be less than digital ones: Ebay ~10%, Etsy ~5%.

30/30/30 splits are extremely common across all industries.

https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product...

Basically a $10 product had better cost $3 to make, $6 for wholesale, and $10 MSRP. If you're outsourcing manufacture, then you're likely adding another layer in there for a 30/30/30 split.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#150

Post by michaelmrose »

nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

On an android you have the option to pay individual developers but rarely would you find the opportunity let alone the need.

On the web you can trust someone like paypal for what thats worth instead of a million websites.

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