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Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

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Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulatory capture. After their careers at the FAA they will go work at Boeing.

Do you think regulatory capture actually exists? If so, why is the pharmaceutical industry immune?

why do you think pharma is immune, after fiascos like Vioxx, Accutane, opioids, the fact that much regulatory machinery is in place to create drug monopolies?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most software engineers aren’t qualified to have an opinion about the quality of proprietary safety critical software systems that also happen to run against proprietary hardware. So unless you’ve found an economical way to develop an open source jetliner... honestly, what would be the point of open sourcing safety critical systems to the general public? I’m not at all saying it should be closed off from external saf…

You'd be surprised what fraction of a safety critical codebase is just mundane code that anybody can understand with the same amount of effort it takes for "normal" software. The real problem is that most outsiders don't understand the requirements very well (unless you make them public too!), so they can likely only find "simple" code quality issues.

That’s essentially my point. Just finding simple code quality issues isn’t going to cut it, especially when you need hundreds of thousands of dollars of hardware to even test the code against.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most software engineers aren’t qualified to have an opinion about the quality of proprietary safety critical software systems that also happen to run against proprietary hardware. So unless you’ve found an economical way to develop an open source jetliner... honestly, what would be the point of open sourcing safety critical systems to the general public? I’m not at all saying it should be closed off from external saf…

Does being qualified grant you access to the code right now? Who decides if you're qualified and if permission is granted? I assume that currently there's several gatekeepers involved who can shut most independent investigators out.

I still really just don’t get where you’re going with this. You’d need hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of hardware to even test these kinds of software systems.

Simply reading the code isn’t going to help you find critical safety flaws.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#144
I was just reading an article on New York Times that describes the process since 2005 whereby safety oversight responsibilities over Boeing were gradually moved in house — until by 2018 Boeing was self-certifying for 96% of safety testing.

If they are doing 96% of the safety validation work — then they should bear 96% of the responsibility for safety process failures ... in this case, given the break down of safety validation capacity and what I’m increasingly viewing as essentially a coverup after the first and second crashes — 96% of the responsibility is and probably should be - enough to bring Boeing down ...

I’m beginning to think that might be the only way to ensure responsibility for this failure gets allocated in a sufficiently accurate way to ensure this scenario isn’t likely to happen again ... allowing the faa to have the responsibility to bear the weight of this process breakdown would basically just allow Boeing to shift responsibility for this outcome off themselves and onto an organization which it seems has been deliberately engineered (by Boeing) to not have the capacity to perform effective oversight ...

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's surreal - avionics should run on hard real time. (Whether it's offline scheduled and thus "impossible" to miss a deadline, or if it's "soft" realtime and merely testing ensures this, is not the important part. The important part is that it should never miss a deadline.)

I can understand it looks weird but it isn't. A faster processor has no more real time guarantees than a slower processor from the 80s Of course, the faster one can do more stuff in less time, but for flying an airplane (or going to the moon) the amount of computing power needed is much less than people imagine. The issue here is adding more computing into an aging platform. But there's nothing inherently wrong into…

Processing has very little to do with hitting realtime deadlines. Either you do or you don’t. In fact, sometimes faster CPUs are worse for realtime because their latency can be worse.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#146

Can anyone in the know explain why, if ground clearance due to the new engines is the issue, why Boeing cannot just add a few inches to the wheel stems? This would raise the whole aircraft off the ground. Surely that wouldn't effect aerodynamics too much as the wheels are up most of the time.

Because you then need longer and heavier landing gear, which you need to fit somewhere in the plane as they retract. This is a ripple effect where you probably need to redesign the complete airframe, from fuselage to the wings.

They actually cleverly modified the landing gear to gain a bit of heigth, but it was not enough: https://youtu.be/F4IGl4OizM4

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most software engineers aren’t qualified to have an opinion about the quality of proprietary safety critical software systems that also happen to run against proprietary hardware. So unless you’ve found an economical way to develop an open source jetliner... honestly, what would be the point of open sourcing safety critical systems to the general public? I’m not at all saying it should be closed off from external saf…

You'd be surprised what fraction of a safety critical codebase is just mundane code that anybody can understand with the same amount of effort it takes for "normal" software. The real problem is that most outsiders don't understand the requirements very well (unless you make them public too!), so they can likely only find "simple" code quality issues.

Safety critical is by design simple, it is a requirement by the norms to ensure low complexity :)

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised what fraction of a safety critical codebase is just mundane code that anybody can understand with the same amount of effort it takes for "normal" software. The real problem is that most outsiders don't understand the requirements very well (unless you make them public too!), so they can likely only find "simple" code quality issues.

That’s essentially my point. Just finding simple code quality issues isn’t going to cut it, especially when you need hundreds of thousands of dollars of hardware to even test the code against.

It doesn't hurt either.
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