Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#141

Post by cat199 » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored.

so, maintaining the status quo is not 'help'?

> I know some people prefer to stick their noses up and hold what they perceive as the moral high ground, but do consider how lives of hundreds of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions.

so which is it if one says no? sticking ones nose up or considering how the lives of millions of people will be affected by your actions/inactions?

or is it only sticking ones nose up when you disagree with the decision?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#142

Post by baby » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

Your problem is that you're seeing this issue as black and white, which never does good.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#143

Post by tempguy9999 » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #125

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

Comparing this to slavery is silly. This is more like when the entire country is enslaved, and you move to the country. The analogy breaks down because the fact that you may or may not have slaves doesn't change the supply and demand of the slaves. When you said all information is filtered by the government, that shows your ignorance of how things work in China. The rest are not worth responding to.

> that shows your ignorance of how things work in China

Then please educate us. I'd like to know the limits of china's censorship.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#144

Post by selimthegrim » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #127

ezoe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of: + copyrights + trademarks + patents(really bogus patents) + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) + national security + ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese…

I'd be happy to see any country challenge any other country's information restrictions in the international trade system, but I think your examples about the U.S. are partly mistaken. > + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) Religious sensitivities run high in the U.S., but criticizing or mocking (or advocating…

Waiting for the case U.S. v One Copy of Crayon Shinchan

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#145

Post by cirenehc » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

> I have profound sympathy for the victims of authoritarian regimes, and I absolutely do not believe that the way to help them is to collaborate with the very system that oppresses them. Pretending otherwise sounds like Newspeak to me.

I have relatives in China. Censorship is the least of their worries when the current Baidu monopoly is allowing promoted results that are sometimes flat-out evil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi).

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#146

Post by bduerst » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Agreed. Some of the criticism of the censorship also shows a underlying lack of understanding how search engines works. The Chinese firewall blocks the websites, not the search engines.

What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#147

Post by cirenehc » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

jsharf wrote: post #134

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Are we even helping them at that point? It's just another censored search engine. They already have that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#148

Post by TearsInTheRain » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#149

Post by benjaminbrodie » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #109

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. So what? That does not make censorship morally acceptable. This would be the same as saying that using slave labor is ok, if you do it in a country that already accepts slavery anyway, and you are treating you slaves better. > And by surfacing better information for queries, it ca…

Your entire speech pattern is positively comical. This is the thing with democracy: it produces individuals who like to "shine" in conversation, rewards rhetoric and theatrics at the expense of reason.

It should be kept in mind that democracy originally didn't mean "rule by the people". It meant rule by demos, ie common people.

"There is no democracy in physics. We can't say that some second-rate guy has as much right to opinion as Fermi." - Luis Walter Alvarez

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#150

Post by londons_explore » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

chollier wrote: post #119

what about microsoft / bing? they are available in China and no one seems to give them shit compared to google

Google employees are very vocal, and will internally protest anything they don't agree with. That protest often gets leaked to the media.

Microsoft is run like a regular company where employees just do what they're told.