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U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

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Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#141
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The widespread willful ignorance about the differences between modeling weather and climate was amusing to me 20 years ago. But the joke is long past its sell-by date. No, we can't predict whether it will rain on this day in August in Augusta Georgia. Detailed forecasts will probably never get a lot better a month out. But we can predict that December 2019 will be colder than August 2019 across most of the USA, and t…

Not really. The delta in how data is collected in August and December is much smaller than 1980 to 2020. So such determinations aren’t as straightforward as you imply. Not to mention none of the catastrophic climate consequences predicted in 1980 came to pass, but somehow we are supposed to be so much more certain about the prognosticators of today.

The charitable interpretation would be the catastrophic predictions in the "1980s", such as around the time AGW became widely publicized with Hansen's papers and testimony and UN efforts.

https://www.apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0

"[Noel Brown, director of the New York office of the U.N. Environment Program]...says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000...governments have a 10-year window of opportunity to solve the greenhouse effect before it goes beyond human control...The most conservative scientific estimate that the Earth’s temperature will rise 1 to 7 degrees in the next 30 years,"

June 29, 1989

There is a big difference between 1 degree in 30 years (slightly above what has been observed, mostly beneficial) and 7 degrees in 30 years (catastrophe).

Note that the "10-year window" (and often shorter times) has been repeatedly invoked and repeatedly blown past throughout the 30 years. As Douglas Adams says — 'I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.' This has come from scientists (Peter Wadhams Arctic ice free by 2016), UN IPCC (Himalayan glaciers by 2035), political figures (Al Gore 10 years/12 years, Ocasio-Cortez 12-years), and celebrities (Prince Charles!? 96-months).

James Hansen speculated (1988/1989) that "West Side Highway...will be underwater" - about 20 foot sea level rise, but sea level rise has remained constant at about a foot per century. Also droughts (have to ask for water), increased crime, and boarded up windows because of wind speed. Note that this was reported as "in 20 years" - so 2009 - by Salon https://www.salon.com/2001/10/23/weather/ reporting the 1988/1989 interview, but after this article was highlighted by skeptics, Hansen corrected the numbers saying it was for 40 years and with a doubling of CO2 (which would be really fast and outside the bounds of even the extreme scenarios) - http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2011/20110126_Singing...

Hansen also predicted (1988) strengthening hurricanes (no trend observed, despite warming, media attention, and increased observation) https://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/07/us/ferocious-storms-and-d...

Both sides tend to exaggerate their positions and ignore contrary evidence. Both skeptics and advocates tend to focus on "Scenario A" - the extreme, unrealistic worst-case scenario - rather than the more realistic moderate emissions, moderate warming scenarios.

I wish both AGW proponents and skeptics would call out inaccuracies - even from "their own side". For instance, the IPCC's "Himalayan glaciers gone by 2035" was initially defended and widely publicized before being forced to be acknowledged as an error years later https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jan/20/ipcc-him... The exaggerated sea-level rise predictions in the Salon article above stood uncorrected for years until it was called out by skeptics, then Hansen clarified the "40 years and doubled CO2".

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#142

I wonder if water export can become an industry in the same manner as petroleum or natural gas? With solar power getting so inexpensive I wonder if we could fill a very slow solar power tanker and ship it to the middle east at costs lower than desalinization? Thoughts anyone? It might not be so crazy. At one-time shipping ice around the world was a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_trade

Good question.

Desalinization also has externalities that aren't priced in but would make sense to consider. That's a fancy way of saying that the salt removed from the water creates a brine that in large quantities is no bueno to just dump somewhere.

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#143
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is a 3D model even necessary? See [0]. PDEs can be solved discreetly in three dimensions on a three-dimensional grid (3D model, sort of). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_volume_method

That doesn't really explain why you need a 3d model, though. If there was no important vertical process, you could get away with not resolving it. However, vertical heat transport is the entire game since the lower atmosphere is opaque to heat.

I mean, it does though. The atmosphere is a 3D volume. Parameters that you might be interested in solving for, like advection and convection, are 3D processes. Consequently, you will need a 3D grid to solve the PDEs describing these parameters.

EDIT: Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I believe we fundamentally agree and our posts describe the same reasoning in two different ways.

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The delta in how data is collected in August and December is much smaller than 1980 to 2020. So such determinations aren’t as straightforward as you imply. Not to mention none of the catastrophic climate consequences predicted in 1980 came to pass, but somehow we are supposed to be so much more certain about the prognosticators of today.

The charitable interpretation would be the catastrophic predictions in the "1980s", such as around the time AGW became widely publicized with Hansen's papers and testimony and UN efforts. https://www.apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0 "[Noel Brown, director of the New York office of the U.N. Environment Program]...says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global…

Yes, there was a delay in effects during the 80s. I'm guessing that we can thank China for that. They pumped a shitload of SOx into the atmosphere. Some of it formed a high-altitude haze, which reflected enough sunlight to offset warming from increased CO2.

But China is releasing less SOx now. And it gets washed out of the atmosphere much faster than CO2 does. So the fit is hitting the shan now.

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#145
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally, charity in an interpretation means that there's a way that it could be taken where it makes sense. I don't think that's the case for this comment. The most charitable interpretation I have is that the original poster is a paid shill -- in other words, they're bright enough to realize what they're saying is idiotic, but they're just doing a job to put food on the table. It'd take some evidence to sway me to…

Seriously? I don't agree with their comment. But after looking at their comment history, I see no evidence for them being "a paid shill". Contrarian and outspoken, sure. But not a shill.

So much for not making it personal!

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But sure as usual just downvote all you want, that doesent make computer models or statistics any more science." As usual. Ignorance, while feeling self righteous. But out of curiosity, have you actually studied some science, that you can make such bold claims, that computer models and statistics have nothing todo with science? But maybe a different way: you really believe that all what humanity does, has no influen…

I have studied how the computer models work yes. And i know what the difference between what is speculated and what is demonstrated and what is demonstrated in a lab under controlled circumstances and then what can be demonstrated in a non linear chaotic system like the climate. There is nothing about the greenhouse effect that doesent make sense to me, the problem i have is with claims about what computer modeling c…

"problem i have is with claims about what computer modeling can be used for. "

Ok, we agree on that. But so far I only heird weird claims from the media, activist and politician side. The actual scientists do point out the limitations of their models. But still, if the overwhelming majority of the involved scientists say all their models and data does indeed point to human made climate change and warming ... then maybe there is something to it?

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#147

I wonder if water export can become an industry in the same manner as petroleum or natural gas? With solar power getting so inexpensive I wonder if we could fill a very slow solar power tanker and ship it to the middle east at costs lower than desalinization? Thoughts anyone? It might not be so crazy. At one-time shipping ice around the world was a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_trade

Except the US really, really, really needs it. Just in different parts of the US.

Keep your mitts off our water. You don't need water-intensive agriculture in the desert.

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, trying to understand whenever someone sees "it rained alot" and equates it to death of the world and reconcile it with a basis in science. Interested in long term climate change and how the latest is impacting what we see. Not blindly accepting internet rants, trying to think of it scientifically instead of "rain = we dying" Know any good resources to get more info?

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Farmers-say-wet-spri... Some areas in the US already have a short growing season as it is. If excessive rains in say, Montana, push back the planting times of wheat and other grains the plants might not be ready to harvest before Fall and Winter weather kills them.

In Montana most wheat is planted in the late summer and fall. In most of USA ag areas, spring rains are more challenging for corn and beans than for wheat.

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#149
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does put things into perspective, a bit.

Nah, it's a common talking point, but it's highly flawed. It's like claiming that because we can't predict if the stock market will go up or down tomorrow, we can't determine whether we're in a recession or a boom time. Short-term weather is fairly chaotic (and we've gotten a lot better at predicting it over the last 50 years). Long-term trends are different.

If you can figure out recessions and booms in real time you can make lots of money.

Re: U.S. has its wettest 12 months on record again

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have studied how the computer models work yes. And i know what the difference between what is speculated and what is demonstrated and what is demonstrated in a lab under controlled circumstances and then what can be demonstrated in a non linear chaotic system like the climate. There is nothing about the greenhouse effect that doesent make sense to me, the problem i have is with claims about what computer modeling c…

"problem i have is with claims about what computer modeling can be used for. " Ok, we agree on that. But so far I only heird weird claims from the media, activist and politician side. The actual scientists do point out the limitations of their models. But still, if the overwhelming majority of the involved scientists say all their models and data does indeed point to human made climate change and warming ... then may…

Their data don't point to that, they are interpreting the data as if it does which there isn't any scientific evidence to support. Only speculation (it could be other things like the sun, natural variation and so many other things which they haven't been able to rule out)
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