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We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

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Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#141

Post by chadcmulligan »

amelius wrote: post #139
fragmede wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances Early models of the Nissan leaf weren't too much more than that (though there have been some advances since the invention of electricity). However, golf carts are the modern version of the small electric car - and is street legal in service jurisdictions! (Okay, technically what's street legal isn't literally…

For short distances you could use a bicycle or scooter instead. Cars are mostly useful for larger distances, i.e. on highways, where slow vehicles are not allowed.

bicycles / scooters have a limited application though - families with young kids, long trips, older people, people with injuries, its raining, are just some of the groups / times these are excluded. Cars still are superior general purpose solution for travel.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#142

Post by make3 »

gambiting wrote: post #138
raxxorrax wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still think there is a limit in chemical density that cannot be overcome without significantly changing technological principles of current batteries. Maybe hydrogen fuel cells would be a better solution after all if we can find an efficient way to contain it. Easier said than done...

Energy density of hydrogen per litre is few orders of magnitude lower than that of petrol. Really the only saving grace of hydrogen vs batteries is the speed of refueling.

isn't it still much better than batteries?

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#143

Post by kozak »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #140
gambiting wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy density of hydrogen per litre is few orders of magnitude lower than that of petrol. Really the only saving grace of hydrogen vs batteries is the speed of refueling.

If someone invented a cheap round trip processing method CO2 -> petrol then EV's would have a hard time I suspect

But we would still need batteries to store regenerative braking energy (i.e. it would be a hybrid).

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#144

Post by AstralStorm »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #141
amelius wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For short distances you could use a bicycle or scooter instead. Cars are mostly useful for larger distances, i.e. on highways, where slow vehicles are not allowed.

bicycles / scooters have a limited application though - families with young kids, long trips, older people, people with injuries, its raining, are just some of the groups / times these are excluded. Cars still are superior general purpose solution for travel.

You'd be surprised how much a simple bicycle or scooter cab can accomplish in solving this objection. These are very popular in Asia.

The main limit is carrying capacity - maximum power - and you really do not need that much stuff. This works long range too, and could work even longer range should there be proper cargo trains for bikes. But there aren't.

The trip time is typically needed to be less than 10h or you need alternative driver or a long break anyway. A car can go let's say 1000 km on average in that time. A plane maybe 5kkm and a train matches a car. A human powered bicycle goes perhaps 250-300 km. Man on foot goes 40 km.

In a city a car is on average 30% faster than a bike and even less vs a scooter or motorbike.

Except in the bigger mode of transport there is space to put in amenities and a spare driver or secondary crew.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#145

Post by iguy »

maxxxxx wrote: post #56
Animats wrote: post #55

* But no sudden technological breakthrough explains the automobile’s arrival in the 1890s either.* Er, steel? Steel was about as exotic as titanium is now until the 1860s when the Bessemer process went into volume production.

I think steam engines prototyped a lot of the needed technology like lubrication, manufacturing of precision shafts and heat resistance which then could be applied to the gas engine.

Lubrication is, I think, and under-appreciated aspect here.

Trains got substantially more efficient circa 1850-1950, more miles-per-ton, and I believe the reason was essentially that they made hotter steam, because efficiency is bounded by the temperature difference (thanks to Carnot). And the limitation on how hot you could make steam, in any given decade, was that you needed the cylinder to still be lubricated at that temperature, and this technology slowly advanced.

I think this is one of the reasons internal combustion engines didn't appear sooner. They are necessarily quite hot, even more so for diesel, which is later (and more efficient).

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#146

Post by Thlom »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #141
amelius wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For short distances you could use a bicycle or scooter instead. Cars are mostly useful for larger distances, i.e. on highways, where slow vehicles are not allowed.

bicycles / scooters have a limited application though - families with young kids, long trips, older people, people with injuries, its raining, are just some of the groups / times these are excluded. Cars still are superior general purpose solution for travel.

Young kids: Cargo bike. Long trips: Car or public transit is better for most people. Older people: Tricycle/electrical assist bike People with injuries: Tricycle, recumbent bike, hand pedals, electric assist etc Rain: rain coat.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#147

Post by chadcmulligan »

AstralStorm wrote: post #144
chadcmulligan wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bicycles / scooters have a limited application though - families with young kids, long trips, older people, people with injuries, its raining, are just some of the groups / times these are excluded. Cars still are superior general purpose solution for travel.

You'd be surprised how much a simple bicycle or scooter cab can accomplish in solving this objection. These are very popular in Asia. The main limit is carrying capacity - maximum power - and you really do not need that much stuff. This works long range too, and could work even longer range should there be proper cargo trains for bikes. But there aren't. The trip time is typically needed to be less than 10h or you ne…

That's a good point, I suppose the problem with many cities is they are designed for cars, not for more people centric solutions. I'd like to see a city designed for smaller vehicles bikes / scooters / small EV's, its difficult to get rid of cars once they're there though.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#148

Post by iguy »

aidenn0 wrote: post #92
whenchamenia wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the pre-war cars I have been in or around... only steam had the power to throw you back in the seat. It would be interesting to see a modern multifuel interpretation of one. Might be well suited to long runtimes and alternate fuels.

The problem with steam is that external combustion tends to be very fuel inefficient compared to internal combustion. This is true in general, but becomes even more true when you constrain the size and weight of the engine.

> external combustion tends to be very fuel inefficient compared to internal combustion. This is true in general

No, that's not true at all. Big power plants stayed with steam for efficiency reasons, and they are pretty close to theoretical limits.

Cars and aeroplanes, and later ships and trains, went to internal combustion because size and weight are very real concerns for them, and this trade-off against pure efficiency (heat-to-torque) was worth making. In the name of overall efficiency, if you like -- smaller engines meant more cargo room, so in oil-to-cargo terms you could come out ahead.

More electrical now is gas-turbine, but again this is about trading efficiency for other things -- peak-hour electricity is worth much more than 3am electricity, etc.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#149

Post by cinquemb »

gambiting wrote: post #138
raxxorrax wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still think there is a limit in chemical density that cannot be overcome without significantly changing technological principles of current batteries. Maybe hydrogen fuel cells would be a better solution after all if we can find an efficient way to contain it. Easier said than done...

Energy density of hydrogen per litre is few orders of magnitude lower than that of petrol. Really the only saving grace of hydrogen vs batteries is the speed of refueling.

I think molten salt (latent heat) batteries could push the boundaries further as researchers continue to design salt mixtures with lower melting points and higher and higher delta_k's (economic considerations of compounds included).

Though for usage in cars would imply some kind of small/portable vacuum storage tanks and a way to put the heat to work (most likely initially through a steam engine and eventually directly to electricity via advanced thermocouples[0])

[0] https://arxiv.org/abs/1308.5935

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#150

Post by clouddrover »

chadcmulligan wrote: post #121

Some of the reasons why petrol won: There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement. Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and do…

> its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this

Here's one. The Renault Twizy: https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy.html

The e.Go Life only has 100km range in the base model (the e.Go Kart looks pretty fun): https://e-go-mobile.com/en/models/e.go-life/

The Sono Sion has a small battery but plenty of solar panels: https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/

The Honda e is a nice looking city car with only 200km range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfD67KCFxqI

The electric city car certainly exists. I wouldn't buy one but you can if you want.

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