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US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

theguardian.com

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Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#141

Post by foldr »

cyphar wrote: post #133
foldr wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what response you'd like me to have -- call for him to be in prison for the rest of his life? I think endangering the lives of multiple people ought to merit some kind of punishment, yes. > That they don't publish anything? That they make a serious attempt to redact sensitive info that it's not in the public interest to reveal. Their official reason for not doing so with the Afghan cables was, essentia…

> I think endangering the lives of multiple people ought to merit some kind of punishment, yes. That is definitely a valid point-of-view (and it's not one that I necessarily disagree with), but that's simply not what he is being charged with. > Assange plainly and openly didn't give a crap if anyone was hurt as a result. If you're referring to the claim that he said "informants deserve what they get", this quote coul…

"I reviewed the statement of someone that a London paper claimed to be speaking for some part of the Taliban. Remember, the Taliban is actually not a homogenous group. And the statement, as far as such things go, was fairly reasonable, which is that they would not trust these documents; they would use their own intelligence organization's investigations to understand whether those people were defectors or collaborators, and if so, after their investigations, then they would receive appropriate punishment. Now, of course, that is — you know, that image is disturbing, but that is what happens in war, that spies or traitors are investigated."

https://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/3/julian_assange_respond...

>but that's simply not what he is being charged with.

I didn't say that it was.

>But again, that doesn't change that they should've done more to redact them.

Correct. I don't believe that they actually have been more careful subsequently, but it's irrelevant in any case.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#142

Post by LMYahooTFY »

chrisseaton wrote: post #53
cyphar wrote: post #35

I find it incredible that it took the Guardian 7 years to decide to write this article. EDIT: In fact, it's not even by the Guardian -- it's an opinion piece by an ex-Guardian editor who was (at least implicitly) part of the smear campaign against Julian Assange "back in the day". Let's not forget that the Guardian sent Julian Assange a basket with soap and socks when he took refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy[1]. What…

> a basket with soap and socks Does this have some cultural significance? It a symbolic snub of some kind? The speaker in the video says that they sent him this care package and then pauses and stares into space like it's the most obviously terrible thing they could have done and needs no further comment. I don't get it?

Assange is riding the edge of what is considered permissible in society, where this line effectively divides the state and consolidated power, and the public.

These are matters of life and death for Assange, victims of the war crimes of which he's published, and future potential victims if journalistic freedom is further restricted and thus even less accountability for war criminals.

The Guardian has elected not to bring their clout and lawyers to bear on these matters. Instead, they sent Assange a basket of soap and socks for his extended stay in a foreign embassy.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#143

Post by lagg »

Shivetya wrote: post #77
throwaway8879 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also seems to me that the possibility of a revolution, in any sense of the word, is getting more and more miniscule, no matter which angle you look at it, whether it's because many people simply don't care or are happy to voluntarily give up private information for diminishing doses of dopamine hits. The thing about any major revolutionary change is that the initial seed is planted through breaking some kind of la…

The revolution needed is for people to quit letting the politicians and press to set their world view. One must remember that political parties extensively use market research to craft their message and through sycophants in the press will float trial balloons of upcoming campaign statements to see what will work. Using fear, uncertainty, doubt, and jealously, the convince you to not only put them in office but to st…

“Politicians need religion even more than a hermit in retreat. If a hermit acts out of bad motivation, he harms no one but himself. But if someone who can directly influence the whole of society acts with bad motivation, then a great number of people will be adversely affected.”

The day I discovered this quote was a rather striking moment. I find it continues to be relevant. Especially when one considers the demagoguery and celeb - I don't just mean TV, note how certain politicians/bootlickers are treated right now - worship that we are effectively replacing establishment religion.

Also important to note that they both use religion. Who puts money in the tithe plate? Not the megachurch preacher. I am a former christian and I struggle to see many differences between a preacher and a politician. Especially celebrity evangelists.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#144

Post by hartator »

jtr_47 wrote: post #126

What I don't understand is the the following. 1. Julian is not a United States of America Citizen. So USA laws don't apply to him, unless he is in the USA and has committed a crime or offense of some kind 2. Julian is a citizen of another country. How do the laws of USA all of a sudden encompass people outside of the USA? Yes, wikileaks did receive "secret" stuff, but the exposure of these events is for the greater g…

Army size always correlates to more diplomatic power. You also have US military bases everywhere in Europe. Not the reverse. Europe relies heavily on US troops for their defense. So if the US perceives Assange as the threat, the rest of EU better does as well! It's that simple.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#145

Post by harperlee »

sbov wrote: post #138
jtr_47 wrote: post #126

What I don't understand is the the following. 1. Julian is not a United States of America Citizen. So USA laws don't apply to him, unless he is in the USA and has committed a crime or offense of some kind 2. Julian is a citizen of another country. How do the laws of USA all of a sudden encompass people outside of the USA? Yes, wikileaks did receive "secret" stuff, but the exposure of these events is for the greater g…

> So USA laws don't apply to him, unless he is in the USA and has committed a crime or offense of some kind Physical presence is an odd requirement. So if I pay people to deliver bombs to people in the USA, but I'm not in the USA, I haven't committed a crime?

Yes, but not in the USA. You did not bomb - you paid for it, in another country that should judge that.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#146

Post by k1m »

threatofrain wrote: post #139
cyphar wrote: post #35

I find it incredible that it took the Guardian 7 years to decide to write this article. EDIT: In fact, it's not even by the Guardian -- it's an opinion piece by an ex-Guardian editor who was (at least implicitly) part of the smear campaign against Julian Assange "back in the day". Let's not forget that the Guardian sent Julian Assange a basket with soap and socks when he took refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy[1]. What…

Instead of blaming the press like they failed you as your life mentor, I’d also argue the actions of the media imply the disinterest of the people. The press is largely a mirror, just like marketing — it’s all based on what people think will sell to you. More articles on math? That doesn’t sell.

The press plays a much more important role when it comes to power. Manufacturing Consent by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky is the classic text on the propaganda role of the press. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12617.Manufacturing_Cons...

This old BBC interview with Noam Chomsky about the topic is also illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjENnyQupow

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#147

Post by woliveirajr »

sbov wrote: post #138
jtr_47 wrote: post #126

What I don't understand is the the following. 1. Julian is not a United States of America Citizen. So USA laws don't apply to him, unless he is in the USA and has committed a crime or offense of some kind 2. Julian is a citizen of another country. How do the laws of USA all of a sudden encompass people outside of the USA? Yes, wikileaks did receive "secret" stuff, but the exposure of these events is for the greater g…

> So USA laws don't apply to him, unless he is in the USA and has committed a crime or offense of some kind Physical presence is an odd requirement. So if I pay people to deliver bombs to people in the USA, but I'm not in the USA, I haven't committed a crime?

Well... Depends. It might not be a crime in the country "X" where you are. It might be a crime in the USA, but country "X" won't extradict you because it doesn't consider it to be a crime. Even if you are a citzen from country "B", where B and USA consider it a crime.

International crimes depend on a lot of factors.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#148

Post by spikels »

creaghpatr wrote: post #44
cyphar wrote: post #35

I find it incredible that it took the Guardian 7 years to decide to write this article. EDIT: In fact, it's not even by the Guardian -- it's an opinion piece by an ex-Guardian editor who was (at least implicitly) part of the smear campaign against Julian Assange "back in the day". Let's not forget that the Guardian sent Julian Assange a basket with soap and socks when he took refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy[1]. What…

And in fact, the Guardian published a blatently false story about Manafort holding "secret talks" with Assange, which they incredibly have still not retracted, despite literally zero evidence to back up this extraordinary claim. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-hel...

That story was clearly fake. The Guardian reporter and his source have both proven to be unreliable in the past, no other newspaper could confirm the claims and the Special Council looked into it and found nothing.

And the Guardian has now “re-establish[ed] links” with British military/intelligence after their breakup post-Snowden:

https://mobile.twitter.com/DCKennard/status/1138493594728304...

Much of our media now coordinates and sources stories from national intelligence services. This has been true with some of the biggest stories of the past few years - many of which failed to pan out. So in some important cases our “news” has been literally government propaganda.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#150

Post by bitL »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #29
blub wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implications are grim. Governments worldwide are tightening the screws, becoming more secretive and spying extensively on their citizens. Voting doesn't work, as most parties support this encroachment on civil liberties in the name of fighting various evils. I don't have any solutions and little hope. In the past it used to be that totalitarian governments fell because the population was poor and deeply unhappy.…

It also seems to me that the possibility of a revolution, in any sense of the word, is getting more and more miniscule, no matter which angle you look at it, whether it's because many people simply don't care or are happy to voluntarily give up private information for diminishing doses of dopamine hits. The thing about any major revolutionary change is that the initial seed is planted through breaking some kind of la…

Only well-funded revolutions historically succeeded. The only way might be crypto-based revolution, but I doubt that. Another way is a disorganized chaos when a society implodes, but that rarely brings better things.
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