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TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

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Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#141

Post by macspoofing »

maxsilver wrote: post #108
macspoofing wrote: post #77

The number of anti-TurboTax articles lately ... I get it, filing taxes could be easier but it isn't - on the scale of things to worry about, is it really that important? What about on the scale of things that government is inefficient at - does this rank in the top 1000? Again, I'm not saying we can't improve it, and I agree with calls for the IRS (and CRA) to send pre-filled forms. What I'm calling into question is…

> I get it, filing taxes could be easier but it isn't No, I don't think you really get it. This isn't about taxes. The problem is that a private corporation has corrupted the federal government to such an absurd extreme, that it has abdicated it's responsibility to it's own citizens. That's why this is such a big deal. The fact that it happens to be manifesting through tax filing is a relevant detail, but not really…

>The problem is that a private corporation has corrupted the federal government to such an absurd extreme, that it has abdicated it's responsibility to it's own citizens.

I think you're being a little hysterical on this point. It isn't that big of a deal. No human rights have been infringed on.

>The government is not inefficient.In fact, the government is so hyper-efficient at solving this problem, that private companies had to draft legislation outlawing the government from solving this problem, just to protect their inefficient lazy duopoly.

The government is SO efficient that they are able to be corrupted by a tax company. And not just any government, a superpower with a $20 trillion economy!!

Here's the thing - to you this is an outlier, to me this is a intrinsic property of every government. That is, the fact that governments will draft policies that aren't the most efficient, or may not be in the best interest of the largest number of people is normal (and not necessarily a bad thing)!! That is what makes government inefficient - because being a gatekeeper, they are very susceptible to attempts of corruption - so all kinds of interest groups, from corps, to unions, to activists, will attempt to skew it towards their positions.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#142

Post by macspoofing »

GordonS wrote: post #88
macspoofing wrote: post #77

The number of anti-TurboTax articles lately ... I get it, filing taxes could be easier but it isn't - on the scale of things to worry about, is it really that important? What about on the scale of things that government is inefficient at - does this rank in the top 1000? Again, I'm not saying we can't improve it, and I agree with calls for the IRS (and CRA) to send pre-filled forms. What I'm calling into question is…

I'm a Brit, so ab outsider - but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? I'm not aufait with the US tax system, so please correct me if I've got that wrong.

>but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free?

Why would it be a 'big issue'? There is no human right to super easy tax filing. Interest groups, whether they be corps, or unions or activists, will lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#143

Post by GordonS »

macspoofing wrote: post #142
GordonS wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Brit, so ab outsider - but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? I'm not aufait with the US tax system, so please correct me if I've got that wrong.

>but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? Why would it be a 'big issue'? There is no human right to super easy tax filing. Interest groups, whether they be corps, or unions or activists, will lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain.

> Why would it be a 'big issue'?

Let me flip that around - why wouldn't it be? Surely corporations shouldn't have the power to change laws to let them squeeze citizens for every cent? Surely laws should be there for the benefit of the populace?

> lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain

Lobbying is indeed a thing in the UK, but not remotely to the degree it is in the US. And on this specific issue, there isn't even a remote possibility that the UK would legislate against free tax filing, regardless of ludicrous lobbying (and I say this as someone with a very low opinion of UK politics).

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#144

Post by macspoofing »

GordonS wrote: post #143
macspoofing wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? Why would it be a 'big issue'? There is no human right to super easy tax filing. Interest groups, whether they be corps, or unions or activists, will lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain.

> Why would it be a 'big issue'? Let me flip that around - why wouldn't it be? Surely corporations shouldn't have the power to change laws to let them squeeze citizens for every cent? Surely laws should be there for the benefit of the populace? > lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain Lobbying is indeed a thing in the UK, but not remotely to the degree it is in t…

>Let me flip that around - why wouldn't it be?

Because it isn't a big deal.

>Surely corporations shouldn't have the power to change laws to let them squeeze citizens for every cent?

They don't have the power to change laws. Congress makes laws. Corporations certainly have a right to lobby government, just like unions, just like citizens, just like activists, just like non-profits.

>Lobbying is indeed a thing in the UK, but not remotely to the degree it is in the US

I'm not sure what standard you use to make this assertion.

>And on this specific issue, there isn't even a remote possibility that the UK would legislate against free tax filing

What are you talking about? You can file for free in United States. That's not at issue. People are complaining that IRS doesn't send a simpler pre-filled tax form. They are also complaining that TurboTax and H&R block does not advertise free filing options [1].

[1] https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f...

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#145

Post by zerd »

PhantomGremlin wrote: post #133
vonmoltke wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... I haven't tried it, and some people tell of getting the runaround when trying to actually use it, but there it is.

Yes, there it is. That page is literally 1 click from the main irs.gov site. Granted, it's "below the fold", most people will have to scroll down just a little bit. But there it is: IRS Free File. Go ahead, naysayers, downvote me all you want, but I'll say this: if you can't find that page and investigate if it applies to you, then you deserve to pay to file . It's a totally different discussion if the links from the…

Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ directly, they will start with a search. Here's what might happen: https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you...

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#146

Post by javagram »

kelnos wrote: post #125
javagram wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IRS does not actually have all the information placed on the tax return. For instance, all interest is charged as income for tax purposes, but 1099-INT is only issued for $10 and above. Similar restrictions exist for 1099-MISC but at a higher threshold, if you are a freelancer who receives a lot of small 1099 income from multiple sources, the IRS has no way of knowing that. Conversely, if you’re eligible to itemi…

I always hear this argument, but all this just doesn't matter. It's optimizing for the wrong things. The majority of taxpayers are not in that situation . They would benefit greatly from an IRS-provided pre-filled tax return. For people that are in this situation, the IRS will send them a pre-filled tax return with incorrect data. Then they have the choice to either start with the pre-filled form and make corrections…

This is true. I still file using the itemized deductions but that’s because I am a single software developer, live in a high-tax state, and have a decent amount of charitable donations which get me above the standard deduction threshold.

I suspect we will eventually see an IRS prefilled form, anti-tax activists and the tax filing industry can only hold it off so long. Some amount of people will end up overpaying their taxes because they choose to use the prefill rather than itemizing, and some people will feel more entitled to cheat on their taxes (e.g. waiters not reporting cash tips) but then we already see that happen today anyway.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#147

Post by antidesitter »

kelnos wrote: post #123
antidesitter wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but why does making the process more painful make people lobby for lower taxes? The connection isn’t obvious to me. To make this more explicit, presumably the chain of reasoning is as follows: 1. Make tax filing more painful. 2. As a general rule, people will set out to do that which reduces their pain. 3. Therefore, people will set out to do that which makes tax filing less painful. 4. People determine that lobb…

I disagree with the premise, but I don't think the idea is that making the process more painful will make people want lower taxes. It's just an in-your-face reminder of how much you're paying in taxes, supposedly sending a stronger message to you than if the IRS were to send you a pre-filled return. So the idea is, if you're more obviously reminded of how/why your tax money is leaving your wallet, you'll hate taxes m…

> It's just an in-your-face reminder of how much you're paying in taxes

But that’s just going back to my comment 4 levels up this thread. If it’s an issue of tax amount visibility and not tax filing pain, the latter is not needed for the former.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#148

Post by PhantomGremlin »

zerd wrote: post #145
PhantomGremlin wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there it is. That page is literally 1 click from the main irs.gov site. Granted, it's "below the fold", most people will have to scroll down just a little bit. But there it is: IRS Free File. Go ahead, naysayers, downvote me all you want, but I'll say this: if you can't find that page and investigate if it applies to you, then you deserve to pay to file . It's a totally different discussion if the links from the…

Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ directly, they will start with a search. Here's what might happen: https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you...

Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ directly

I didn't type that directly either. I just typed irs.gov and magically wound up in the right place. :)

But you're right, most people don't grok the WWW enough to go directly to a site. Which, as an engineer, drives me crazy. I don't want magic, I want to understand what's happening. I need to understand what's happening.

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