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Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

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141–150 of 776 posts

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#141
WHY THIS IS CENSORSHIP:

I am seeing numerous comments claiming this is not censorship when it most definitely is. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient". Censorship can be conducted by a government, private institutions, and corporations.

From Merriam-Webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/censorship), where there is no mention of 'censorship' being a government-specific concept:

> the institution, system, or practice of censoring

From Oxford (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/censorship), where again there is no mention of 'censorship' being a government-specific concept:

> The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.

We know Facebook is a private corporation. That's irrelevant, as such actions are censorship regardless. So please stop repeating the false claim that this isn't censorship because Facebook can do whatever it wants as a private entity.

WHY FREE SPEECH MATTERS:

Proponents of free speech are pro free speech as a general concept and principle, beyond what protections are afforded under American law today. The idea of free speech predates the existence of the United States. Free speech is hugely valuable to defend, because what society finds acceptable or unacceptable is very much subjective and changes with time/location/culture/setting/leadership/etc. Having an open exchange of ideas is good and necessary for the long-term health and stability of society. Furthermore, making available ideas that challenge current understanding is necessary if we care about being a collectively truth-seeking society.

Free societies are durable over the long term when they protect these rights at all times, for all people, for all ideologies. As a rule of thumb, if the speech in question is not advocating for direct physical violence, it should be permitted. Getting into the business of censoring indirect or non-physical harm is a huge slippery slope. We could frame virtually any idea as having some downstream negative externality and suggest that it should be disallowed. For example, capitalism, socialism, and communism could all be attacked in this manner. Should books on those topic be dropped?

WHY PRIVATE PLATFORMS' CENSORSHIP IS CONCERNING:

Large privately-owned platforms carry so much discourse across today's society, that censorship and deplatforming in those spaces has the same impact as governmental censorship, for most intents and purposes. Even if these corporations do not constitute what we might traditionally call a "monopoly", they control a large-enough share of traffic to have significant impact when they take artificial actions. That is, they constitute a digital public square. That sizable impact is exactly why they are being targeted (not just on this topic but others) by activists or other agents pushing for deplatforming/censorship favorable to their causes.

The big risk is this: when only a few entities funnel so much societal discourse or control our communication infrastructure or process payments, those entities making arbitrary decisions about who they serve has similar impacts/risks to the government imposing similar restrictions through the law. These companies should not act as a thought police and should not impose their own personal governance above what is minimally required by the law. Nor should they rely on the judgment of an angry mob to make decisions.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#142
post #84
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a group is marginally more likely to suffer violence, anyone mocking them should be denied access to widely used communications platforms? Doesn’t really make sense, does it?

That's not what the above poster said, and you know it. You say "marginally", "anyone", "mocking". But the people in question aren't anyone, and they aren't just mocking. There are specific cases of them calling on their fans to harass private citizens. Anyone with some semblance of awareness of US law knows free speech is not without limits. No one is entitled to online speech, believe it or not.

I suppose you’re aware that it’s not unknown for members of the trans community to “call on their fans to harass private citizens”. Would you like them banned too? In fact, Milo has been the victim of many such calls for harassment.

To be clear, I had personal interactions with Milo many years ago when he ran a technology magazine in the UK. I’ve never met a more unpleasant individual and I would be happy to never hear from him again, but progressives working hand-in-hand with corporations to ban obnoxious individuals is a slope I don’t want us to start sliding down.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#143
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is simply being “racist” sufficient justification for a ban It can be, if the site decides it is. Other places, it isn't!

It’s great that the site decides. It is exerting editorial control in this case. Hence, they should be liable for the speech that they do allow. Which means, they should be sueable if a user does slander on their platform, posts copyrightable material, etc.

> It is exerting editorial control in this case.

> Hence, they should be liable for the speech that they do allow.

I see this sentiment often on HN, as if the latter somehow logically and necessarily follows from the former. It doesn't, and if that is what you advocate then you should justify it with proper arguments.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#144
post #111

I'm not a fan of either of these people, but how exactly are Milo Yiannopolous and Paul Joseph Watson "dangerous"? Maybe it's not good material for people to be watching, but to call them "dangerous" comes off like the religious right of yore claiming that video games depicting violence are dangerous and need to be censored. I wouldn't normally step in to defend these people, but this article by CNN is a prime exampl…

Milo Yiannopoulos getting the bully pulpit on TV and university stages, to say, as though it were a fait acompli, that trans people are sick is dangerous. Paul Joseph Watson spewing misinformation about the extent of the refugee crisis is dangerous.

I think if lying about facts and figures is this level of dangerous, then there are many more people who should be banned... such as Obama. Only different is he is stating "facts and figures" (even if they are false) that you agree with.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowing those views on your platform make you complicit Every faction since the dawn of history has said that the views of the other factions are objectively harmful. What is it that blesses SV neo-something-or-other as the one true faction that has finally discovered the objective truth?

Finally somebody gets it!!!! This is refreshing!

Rest assured many people do get it, but the mob rolls on. Power is one hell of a drug.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#146
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There never has been a right to free speech on some private companies system.

That is true for content publishers. However, if those systems are claimed to be public squares, then there is a right to free speech for citizens of the USA there. The tech companies cannot have it both ways. They want to be publishers, then take the responsibilities and liabilities of publishers. https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/09/05/jack-dorsey-says-t...

This is a crucial point, IMO. Facebook et al need to decide (or we as a society need to decide) whether they're a public square - in which case they have no business censoring what people choose to say except in cases speech that is clearly illegal - or a content publisher making choices about what to publish and what not.

(In Facebook's case, at least, I'd say that ever since they moved on from the simple chronological "wall" showing posts as submitted, replacing it with a "timeline" where their algorithms - with plenty of input from "sponsors", etc - decide what you'll see, they have chosen to become a content publisher.)

Fine, in the content publisher role they can decide that certain content, or the speech of certain parties, will not be published through their platform.

But then they must also be held responsible for what they do choose to publish - including liability for harmful content such as libel, false advertising, etc.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The word "fringe" used to mean something a lot more, well... fringe Did it? How many people do you think were interested in old school conspiracy theories like Area 51 [1] or the protocols of the elders of zion [2]? Henry ford printed half a million copies of the latter! >how exactly are Milo Yiannopolous and Paul Joseph Watson "dangerous"? I think "dangerous" is probably not quite the right word. They're dangerous…

> How many people do you think were interested in old school conspiracy theories like Area 51 [1] or the protocols of the elders of zion [2]? Henry ford printed half a million copies of the latter! I think most of the people were interested in it for entertainment, just like people are interested in horoscopes for entertainment. Or would you argue that all these newspapers that had horoscopes in them pushed fringe co…

both of them pretty clearly are on our radar for their political speech (feminism is cancer, “free speech”, soros conspiracies, etc). Given what we know about social media and violence, entertainment value should be a secondary concern.

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how exactly are Milo Yiannopolous and Paul Joseph Watson "dangerous"? "Pizzagate," for example. Milo and InfoWars pushed a loony conspiracy theory until some guy believed them enough to show up at a random restaurant with an assault rifle, which seems dangerous. They did it to sell fake nutritional supplements. EDIT: They're welcome to continue ranting away on their own blogs, but I don't see any reason that Facebo…

If we are measuring effects, shouldn't they start banning anti-vaxxers?

Yes. Why are the measles still a thing?

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#149
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And banning Milo from Facebook is going to somehow improve that situation is it? Milo the loud mouthed cretin’s tame insults are responsible for the incidence of violence against trans women?

The bar Facebook has set is not that they will improve the situation of all trans women everywhere. The bar set is that Facebook will removing people known for dangerous speech. The question is "has Milo committed dangerous speech?". I answered "yes, I believe so, I recall incidents that can be interpreted as such". Also, I did see what you wrote before you edited it out. That was an unfortunate, accusatory comment i…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Bans Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and Others

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works to remove platforms from people who spread hate and misinformation. https://mashable.com/article/milo-yiannopoulos-deplatforming...

So will CNN, MSNBC, FoxNews, etc. finally be de-platformed for "Weapons of Mass Destruction". This has caused actual destruction in terms of trillions of dollars, thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's lives and the rise of ISIS with massive destruction in the middle east.

a) Deplatforming should never be used for revenge, but to prevent bad outcomes in the future. You seem to entirely focus on the past instead of arguing for it to have any future benefit. Incidentally, "by now everyone knows it's satire" is one of the better arguments against banning infowars and milo nowadays seems unable to get enough of an audience to make a profit. Thus recent actions happening only now can easily be seen more as virtue signaling than effective deplatforming. But i guess better late than never.

b) It is only possible to deplatform small parties. Wanting to deplatform the US president or the largest media network in the US (or in your case all of them) is unreasonable.

edit: wording

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