“I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period” • Hacker News Board

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#141

Post by cjbprime » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

chipsa wrote: post #127

l31g wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each side of the airplane has a set of sensors. The ones on the left (while sitting on the plate) are named Captain and the ones on the right are named First-Officer (F/O) . The MCAS software would switch from Captain AoA vane to F/O AoA vane between flights. The location where the pilots are sitting doesn’t affect how the airplane is flying itself. The person flying the plane can be sitting on either of the two seat…

It's not that the MCAS software would switch. It's that the sensors feed into two different flight control computers (Captain and F/O). And which FCC is primary would switch after each flight. Both FCCs run the same software, but with different inputs from the different sensors.

Does it switch automatically after each landing somehow, or because the pilots tell the plane which FCC is going to be primary for the flight?

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#142

Post by cjbprime » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

philpem wrote: post #102

amelius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So switching seats during the flight would have solved the problem?

That sounds so unlikely that most people would dismiss it as silly... I'm not a pilot, but if the controls are linked -- why would the plane need to know where the pilot is sitting (or even have a switch for it)? (Any 747 pilots reading? Can you please fill in the gaps for me?)

Not a pilot either. Perhaps to show different information to the pilot flying vs. assisting? E.g. only the pilot assisting needs to see checklists?

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#143

Post by vkou » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

noncoml wrote: post #10

ptidhomme wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how we, humans, collectively build extraordinary monuments while we individually rest on stilts My take is that we used to have brilliant engineers in the time where computational ressources were scarce (60s, 70 , 80s...), and they thought out their design thoroughly starting with a fucking paper and pencil. Aerospace indutries still rely on the designs from these times. But now engineering seems to be : l…

Brilliant engineers are still there. We haven’t gotten stupider as a species in 30 years. It’s the economics that changed. As people say “They don’t build stuff like they used too anymore”. First we started going cheap on the materials. Now we are going cheap on the engineers too. Why pay a senior “brilliant” engineer $$$$ when a fresh out of college “average” engineer can write the “same piece of code” for $$

Here's the fun bit. A lot of the brilliant engineers that worked on incredibly important historical projects were not getting paid $$$$.

Only in silicon valley ad-tech do 'brilliant' engineers make 40 times more then the janitor.

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#144

Post by spacenick88 » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

ptidhomme wrote: post #5

spectramax wrote: post #2

Btw, the new "fix" for the MCAS has just been announced and discussed by a 40-year experienced pilot [1]. Turns out that while we shouldn't be doing armchair analysis and assuming the worst of the engineering, management and executive team; the software fix released appears to be rather elementary and MCAS should have been designed with these safety checks in the first place. Why it wasn't is a huge concern and we wo…

> I wonder how we, humans, collectively build extraordinary monuments while we individually rest on stilts My take is that we used to have brilliant engineers in the time where computational ressources were scarce (60s, 70 , 80s...), and they thought out their design thoroughly starting with a fucking paper and pencil. Aerospace indutries still rely on the designs from these times. But now engineering seems to be : l…

SpaceX is landing rocket stages on a drone ship after having them drop from 7400 km/h at 100 km altitude. JPL has a city car sized rover craned from a hovering lander on Mars and DeepMind has a computer win against the acting Go champion. Pretty sure that rules out the "today's engineers are bad" hypotheses.

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#145

Post by amyjess » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

dmonagha wrote: post #136

Pigo wrote: post #125

I contracted with a branch of Lockheed. While I couldn't/shouldn't talk about any of the technology involved, I can attest to the culture I witnessed. I always assumed it was horrible because of the government affiliation. But I think that mostly affected their focus, in that most of the branch was dedicated to wasting money so they could ask for more money. However, the culture itself was stagnate by design. Most of…

I worked at a similar large aerospace contractor just in the past couple years. I can attest 100% to what you've said. They estimated they would need to replace 40% of their workforce within the next 10 years just to stay afloat. Recently at my old site they hired 1000 people. Within a year, 800 had quit. These are software engineers, mechanical engineers, etc. I watched people just play on their phones, keep their f…

Wait, the forgotten employee from Dilbert [0] is real? Learn something new every day...

[0] https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-05-05

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#146

Post by decoyworker » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

Pigo wrote: post #125

I contracted with a branch of Lockheed. While I couldn't/shouldn't talk about any of the technology involved, I can attest to the culture I witnessed. I always assumed it was horrible because of the government affiliation. But I think that mostly affected their focus, in that most of the branch was dedicated to wasting money so they could ask for more money. However, the culture itself was stagnate by design. Most of…

You hit the nail on the head with regards to the culture in this industry. This is my experience as well.

For an engineering oriented industry you have an alarming number of engineers with an aversion to learning anything new. As much as incoming / lower level software engineers complain about tools, management / senior engineers just go ahead and choose the shittiest IBM or Oracle product for the job because some vocal graybeard minority in a meeting will complain it's not Clearcase.

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#147

Post by spacenick88 » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

avip wrote: post #82

noncoml wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brilliant engineers are still there. We haven’t gotten stupider as a species in 30 years. It’s the economics that changed. As people say “They don’t build stuff like they used too anymore”. First we started going cheap on the materials. Now we are going cheap on the engineers too. Why pay a senior “brilliant” engineer $$$$ when a fresh out of college “average” engineer can write the “same piece of code” for $$

>We haven’t gotten stupider as a species in 30 years I'm honestly not sure that's true. On top of anecdotes (in my grandfather's generation, the norm was to fluently speak 3-4 languages), go ask any STEM prof. with 20+ mileage about the general math, science and logic literacy of students nowadays.

That's almost certainly "rosy past" bias. Even Aristoteles is said to have complained about the terrible youth.

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#148

Post by vkou » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #18

tus87 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Use inputs from both AOA sensors, if they disagree by 5.5 degrees, disable MCAS. Great, and now you have the other problem the MCAS was supposed to mitigate (the tendency of the MAX to do backflips).

Shrugs, if the MCAS disables with a clear notification to the pilots I think at this point most 737-Max pilots would know the procedure to deal with that. Better than the plane flying itself into the ground.

> Shrugs, if the MCAS disables with a clear notification to the pilots I think at this point most 737-Max pilots would know the procedure to deal with that.

The plane is only certified to be 'identical to the 737' when MCAS is on, and operating correctly.

If MCAS has to be disabled in response to a common mechanical problem, then the plane must be re-certified.

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#149

Post by PaulHoule » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #134

PaulHoule wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a new type rating is a fair punishment, I think, for Boeing and the airlines who have been stringing along this obsolete airliner for way too long. Note the 737 MAX was rushed out not just to fight the A320neo but also to counter this kind of jet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A220 which is cheaper to run than the 737 MAX but also has much better passenger comfort than the 737. I was in the similar http…

How is the 737 obsolete?

The 737 predates the 747 and the Concorde, and both of those are out of passenger service.

The circular cross-section, for one thing, makes it like the old American cars that were huge on the outside and small on the inside. The only way you'll really understand this is ride on an modern plane such as the E175 or A220 -- you'll get that you hate to fly not because you hate to fly but you hate to fly on a 737 and never get to fly on anything else.

The overall design of the aircraft is not compatible with high-bypass engines. Thus they bolted MCAS onto it. Even there the 737 Max does not support the geared turbofans that are available for modern airliners and the A320. These are so quiet that it isn't that you hate living near an airport, it is that you hate living at an airport where 737s land.

Modern airplanes use fly-by-wire which reduces weight (sometimes dramatically because the size of the control surfaces can be reduced) and enables flight envelope protection (like MCAS) in a way that is a lot more rational and thought-through than MCAS.

An all-electric plane like the 787 might also improve air quality on the flight. I don't think small airplane competitors have this yet.

Boeing has used it's market power to suppress alternatives to the 737 so you will pay more for tickets, suffer in transit, have noisier airports, and have more global warming. The MCAS system was just one part of this scheme.

The 737 Max is a case of the "undercompetition and underinvestment" connected with secular stagnation; it is like how your internet service sucks...

Re: “I worked at Boeing for about 1.5 years in the 2008-9 time period”

#150

Post by treis » Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

ozmaverick72 wrote: post #31

spectramax wrote: post #2

Btw, the new "fix" for the MCAS has just been announced and discussed by a 40-year experienced pilot [1]. Turns out that while we shouldn't be doing armchair analysis and assuming the worst of the engineering, management and executive team; the software fix released appears to be rather elementary and MCAS should have been designed with these safety checks in the first place. Why it wasn't is a huge concern and we wo…

The software fixes as described sound sensible and it's hard to believe they were not in the original design. Unfortunately I don't see how these changes will allow them to keep a common type rating with the 737 NG. After the updated MCAS has made its one shot trim adjustment you will now be flying an aircraft with different handling characteristics if you keep increasing the angle of attack into the stall. Surely th…

>The software fixes as described sound sensible and it's hard to believe they were not in the original design

Without the benefit of hind sight it's not obvious that it's a better decision. MCAS being turned off changes the flight characteristics of the plane. If you do that silently you might run into a situation where an aircraft stalls because a pilot is used to having MCAS correcting their input.