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How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

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141–150 of 289 posts

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#141

So I was at one of these companies when the scandal broke. I didn't get screwed quite so much as my coworkers, since I'd only been working there for a year or so. The settlement was a joke - I got about $1100, but my compensation increased by roughly $100K/year the year after the cartel broke, and kept rising. Can't say I'm terribly pleased about either the wage-fixing or the settlement, but... My wife works in phila…

It's just exposed and accelerated an underlying issue in housing policy. When demand goes up supply is also supposed to go up to meet demand in a healthy market, but because of artificial supply restrictions this is what happened. The government is to blame.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#142

So I was at one of these companies when the scandal broke. I didn't get screwed quite so much as my coworkers, since I'd only been working there for a year or so. The settlement was a joke - I got about $1100, but my compensation increased by roughly $100K/year the year after the cartel broke, and kept rising. Can't say I'm terribly pleased about either the wage-fixing or the settlement, but... My wife works in phila…

Another (minor) nit, in my experience you have always needed to be a dual tech income to afford a house in the cities near the bay. My wife and I bought our first house in 1984 for $153,000 and it required us to both be working well paid tech jobs. You can also buy a house usually if you have a lucky equity break and can use that to pay big chunk down so the mortgage is affordable on a single income but as far as I c…

I dunno - my in-laws bought their house in 1986 on a single engineer's salary (then renovated it into a bigger one when my mother-in-law went back to work). I also had a number of coworkers at Google who bought houses in 2009/2010 as single tech workers. Heck, I could've done so myself (2BR condos in MTV were going for $400K at the time), and am kicking myself for not doing it.

Perhaps 09-10 was a bit of an aberration because it was the middle of the foreclosure crisis and housing prices bottomed out then. I guess another big "thing" is parents (particularly Asian ones) paying the down payment for their kids - 2 of the 4 coworkers I'm thinking of had that help, and one had a minor stock-option windfall from joining a company right before Intuit bought it.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#143
post #94
post #35

The settlement is laughable given the number of people whose salaries were held down as a result of this collusion. It's not just workers at these companies that suffer. It has a network effect of holding salaries down at companies which aren't even colluding. Another example of (usually giant) companies deciding to risk breaking the law because its cheaper in the long run to do so.

Let's call settlements what they are: Bribes. Sometimes a bribe can bring justice, but in cases like this where they've created a systemic problem, the knock-on effects are too large for a bribe to ever be true justice. Thats why people need to go to jail.

Hardly.

Settlements go to the plaintiffs, not the authorities. Plaintiffs have to agree to the settlement offer.

The plaintiffs could have gone to trial over this matter. They chose not to because fundamentally they must have perceived that the guaranteed settlement money was better than the risk that they walk away empty-handed. If the case was a slam dunk, the settlement would have been higher or they would have just gone to trial.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#144
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an embarrassment of the victor and never celebrated - atrocious actors on the victorious side have been punished at times throughout history but I agree the bar is higher. It certainly isn't celebrated though - and informed societies can still be outraged (See Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, Yemenese drone strikes under Obama & Trump, the Bay of Pigs, Guatemala... the general familiarity of this list is a testament t…

Depends on the situation. Let's say you have a hostile war captive (enemy combative of a high rank) who is the ONLY one who can provide you with critical, war-winning details. You (metaphorically) would want to do whatever it took to secure those details. I've been in hairy situations before. Everything Hollywood depicts goes out the window. Embedded reporters get a newfound respect for troops once they ride out just…

You would want to do whatever it took to secure those details.

Right, so you bring in Hanns Scharff.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#145
post #36
post #2

So while this is bad... I don't know how to feel about this. The other side of the coin is that these companies pay WAY ABOVE average salaries. I'm intimately familiar with this having FAANG companies average of 50% more compensation than average. Especially outside of the bay area. Typical range TC Sr. SDE in nyc: 150-250k + Bonus. Typical range TC for Sr. SDE in nyc: for Google/Facebook/Amazon 300-400k ( and goes h…

> So while this is bad... I don't know how to feel about this. Just to be clear: you are saying it's possibly ok for a cartel of billionaires to collude to suppress wages for a bunch of people making six figures? Because those employees have it "pretty good" and should be happy with what they're given, even though they are working to build world-historical fortunes and power for the business owners?

No, being clear, since it seems you aren't separating concepts.

You're not happy that these companies have SINGLE large shareholders. That the founders kept so much company equity. I FULLY AGREE no one should have that much wealth. But, no one here is complaining about families or others having similar wealth. They are complaining that founders kept that much ownership.

The real wage suppression is happening in other industries and companies. How about the lack of a livable wage in industrial and service industries? How about that fact that the average wage has not kept up with cost of living?

Why are you advocating for engineers like myself making many times the average income and living way above average lives? That's insane!

How about oil companies with similar profits paying engineers 80-100k? at an actual risk of loss of life?

We should focus on the actual problems. The lack of ability to tax generational and asset wealth. The reason they accumulate so much is that we can't tax their share of ownership.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#146

Notice the difference: " Top executives of leading tech companies secretly agreed among themselves not to hire each other’s employees" "...brought charges against the companies " They should have been indicting both, or just the executives for their explicit role in this criminal behavior. I really detest the lack of individual accountability in all these cases when we deal with large companies. If this was a couple…

> Top executives of leading tech companies secretly agreed among themselves not to hire each other’s employees How do they enforce this agreement? Reminds me of Phoebous cartel agreeing to produce lightbulbs below certain lifetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

Enforced with threats from Steve Jobs himself:

https://www.engadget.com/2014/03/24/emails-reveal-that-steve...

https://www.cultofmac.com/316682/how-steve-jobs-reacted-when...

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Point? What have PPT ever done to you?

No offense to PowerPoint fans! I've observed people making pointless presentations to shore up their brand as employees, not to facilitate trade. It has other uses but... Have you not seen what I describe? That would be a useful data point for me if true.

Not really but I guess that's dependent on company culture. You work at a stack rank place?

Where I work Power Point is mainly used to make presentations that are easy to read on a projector screen (as it should be used).

On many places it seems to be used as a general document writer application ... so what we emotionaly associate with Power Point might differ alot.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#148
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are widely assuming that because a pie was split to 10 people instead of one, there are more money buying houses. That's plain wrong. There is still a single pie. Houses were bought just the same, but by one person instead of 10. I don't know how much more first home purchases facilitate this when there are 10 people instead of one, but I doubt it had any impact since those folks are buying more than one house th…

One person doesn't need 10 houses.

One person doesn't need billions of dollars either. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Real estate is a good investment.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on how much the mean/median person's base salary is that's on the order of a bonus. On one hand it's not that much. On the other hand I'd be pissed if I didn't get my bonus because of some back room deal between execs.

It’s not nearly the amount of an annual bonus, which is typically about 15% base pay. This is the order of a spot bonus (e.g. the director wants to thank you for working double time to make a product launch happen in time for a conference). Or it’s the price of 1-3 successful referrals to a company.

"It’s not nearly the amount of an annual bonus, which is typically about 15% base pay."

Not in plenty of industries.

Re: How Apple, Google, and other tech companies conspired against their own workers

#150
I think the tech anti-poaching lawsuit is kind of a strange case because these are the highly-paid employees, not entry-level laborers, and the free market for top employees is likely to increase inequality, which is sort of the opposite of the goal of the Sherman Act. It’s similar to how collusion in the NBA reduces wages at the top while increasing team profits as well as enabling higher wages at the bottom (sports teams are excluded from the Sherman antitrust act), making a more viable ecosystem (see Planet Money episode https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/11/628137929/epis...). So it’s possible that forcing a free market of top employees will increase wage inequality. And ironically, politicians now complain that these tech companies are paying too much, driving up the rent of housing (thanks to the region’s restricted housing supply), since the lack of housing channels high wages into the pockets of landlords.

How should the Bay Area economy have grown in the past decade if we had wanted to prevent the poverty created by tech and landlord wealth? We should have allowed far more housing supply, allowing apartments to bid down rents and also allowing new workers to bid down wages. We should have had higher taxes on land, allowing the poor to share the wealth created by the increasing concentration of employment centers. And we should have had higher national income taxes, spreading the wealth from the highest-paid workers in the winners-take-all economy to the rest. But given the dysfunctional local government (restrictive zoning), dysfunctional state government (Proposition 13), and dysfunctional national government (low top tiers and low taxes on homeowner rents), the collusion that the tech companies did was not clearly a bad thing. The Sherman Act is about enabling the price signal to be the “central nervous system of the economy” (U.S. v. Socony-Vacuum Oil Co) to mobilize labor and capital. But when the dominant factor in the labor market is local governments’ restrictions on the housing supply which prevent mobility, I don’t see much point in enforcing the antitrust act against companies.

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