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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#141

Post by magduf »

hnarn wrote: post #94
maxehmookau wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My knowledge of unions is based entirely on the UK. They allow groups of employees who are subject to poor conditions to group together and participate in collective bargaining. Most programmers in the UK are not a member of a union as pay is fairly high and conditions relatively good, but the majority of public-sector and a lot of private-sector workers are. Unionising would be an excellent first step for employees…

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime.

That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automakers moved to Southern states where unions didn't exist.

The simple fact is that unions in the US in the latter half of the 20th century and beyond were nothing like unions in Germany, where by almost all accounts they seem to work out extremely well.

>Most people in Europe may not actively be a part of a union, but they normally recognize them as beneficial entities in the labor market

Yes, in Europe that's true. In America, it just hasn't been the case. It's just like public transit: in Germany, trains and subways are fantastic: they're inexpensive, clean, and efficient; whereas in America, they're an utter disaster: dirty, expensive, constant maintenance problems, and just a miserable experience. Try riding the subway in Munich, and then riding the subway in NYC or DC; there's just no comparison. The problem isn't that subways are bad, it's that subways in America are bad. Same goes for unions.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#142

Post by coldtea »

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

>They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set.

Without unionizing, even if all of current employed and poorly paid game developers realized this, there would be no shortage of people coming in to undercut them.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#143

Post by lfcc »

hnarn wrote: post #94
maxehmookau wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My knowledge of unions is based entirely on the UK. They allow groups of employees who are subject to poor conditions to group together and participate in collective bargaining. Most programmers in the UK are not a member of a union as pay is fairly high and conditions relatively good, but the majority of public-sector and a lot of private-sector workers are. Unionising would be an excellent first step for employees…

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

I'm from Portugal (where we've had somewhat similar experiences to Spain with the mentality for unions).

When I was young I believed they were good as it was what I was taught and fell in the socialist-leaning mentality of much of the country.

Having started to learn about economics, entering the industry, and seeing the arguments many people make for unionization have definitely led to me to swing much harder to the "unions are evil" side of the argument.

That said I do believe they are a double edged sword of sorts. When the only employer for a certain profession is the government for example (i.e. not driven by profits and losses, or not a part of a competitive market) unions can actually help make things fair and get a point across that otherwise would not be visible. But in general they are much less efficient than profits and losses in a competitive market and in those situations will lead to a decline in growth that you would otherwise not get.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#144

Post by ahelwer »

r_smart wrote: post #122
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

|Unionisation may help By restricting the supply of talent, thus artificially driving up wages, but at the same time keeping a lot of people from being able to pursue their dream.

Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor, not by putting a stranglehold on new hiring.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#145

Post by tomjohnneill »

lovetocode wrote: post #52
maxehmookau wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

In the UK at least, there's also quite a few people working on 'reinventing the union' (e.g.: https://www.organise.org.uk/ [1]). There's definitely an element to which old-school unions aren't particularly well suited to the modern workplace.

For example, they don't work very well for freelancers/gig economy type jobs; and their traditional focus on job safety in factories/assembly lines doesn't really apply in the same way to programmers sitting at desks.

[1] I'm not affiliated with them, but have met the team, and they seem like smart people.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#146

Post by usefulcat »

djsumdog wrote: post #99
lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

I was fired from a shop that made a game backend and asked workers to continually crunch, work long hours on salary with no overtime. There were some big bonuses, but it didn't make up for the bad planning and management. I refused to work over 45 hours a week. I worked one 13 hour Sunday and said no to the 2nd one and was fired. Another dev/ops person left two weeks later. The others: almost all of the team is still…

> Do they not realize that type of work isn't normal? I've worked at a lot of places and maybe I can just see bad management when others can't?

As you can tell from the fact that they have chosen to stay there and keep doing it, they apparently don't mind it that much. Certainly not enough to leave anyway.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#147

Post by jimmy1 »

hnarn wrote: post #94
maxehmookau wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My knowledge of unions is based entirely on the UK. They allow groups of employees who are subject to poor conditions to group together and participate in collective bargaining. Most programmers in the UK are not a member of a union as pay is fairly high and conditions relatively good, but the majority of public-sector and a lot of private-sector workers are. Unionising would be an excellent first step for employees…

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

The easiest way to debunk your claim that it is purely propaganda is to give easy counter-examples. In this case, may I present to you New York's finest: The MTA and LIRR. where rampant abuse of the system is everywhere and somehow, amazingly, have one of the highest disability claim rates out of any group of workers in the country.

Either working for the MTA or LIRR is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country, or this is quite literally "organized crime"

And who could forget this story? Is this "25 years of propaganda"? https://nypost.com/2013/12/20/ex-lirr-union-boss-in-gravy-tr... https://nypost.com/2014/08/06/nearly-all-lirr-workers-have-d...

Anyways, not saying there aren't good, hard working people in unions out there, and they don't provide some functional value, but like anything in life they have become corrupted.

Unions can certainly succeed if the the employee side also has a vested interest in the success of the company just as much as the company has, and that balance is maintained. Then, you truly have a collective.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#148

Post by luiscleto »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated

This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average.

Ultimately I don't think there is a right answer and which way you choose is up to you. But it sounds like a "you can't have your cake and eat it too" situation.

Lucky are those who are passionate about things the majority of the labor pool hates but many businesses need.

Edit: Just to prevent misunderstandings, this is my opinion on Unionisation in this particular industry where there are many (private) companies. It can be a different story if your only employers are not driven by profits and losses or are not in a competitive market (e.g. a government) and I wasn't trying to make a sweeping generic statement like "all unions are always bad"

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#149

Post by CydeWeys »

armagon wrote: post #107
lvturner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very easy to say, a lot harder to do Equally, finally leaving the games industry was one of the better things I did.

What is the best way to leave? I look at the experience required on the 'Who is Hiring' threads and sigh -- how am I supposed to get two years' professional experience using a technology that has nothing to do with games, or, how do I pick which tech to invest my time in, given that everything seems to be changing so quickly?

If you're a good developer, and it seems like a lot of people leaving the games industry are, it's not hard. Study up on your Cracking the Coding Interview, HackerRank, Leetcode, and similar stuff, and then just interview for Software Engineer positions. On your resume, list your previous experience as something like "Software Engineer, EA Games, 2016-present" (and include the names of any big games you worked on that people might know and be impressed by).

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#150

Post by CydeWeys »

wmil wrote: post #28

Jason Schreier has been pushing for game developers to unionize for a while now. In the case of programmers, it really doesn't make much sense. There's a lot of BS that can come with unions. They have transferable skills. It's just easier to change jobs. For more specialized workers a union probably does make sense, eg: 3d artists, game testers. But I think union organizers are really only interested in the programme…

It certainly makes sense for game developers. They're being exploited with super long working hours, being let go at a moment's notice once a game is out the door, and their pay usually isn't that good. They'd benefit greatly from unionization same as everyone else working on these games.
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