Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet? • Hacker News Board

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#141

Post by DygFiul » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

superfist wrote: post #94

pedroaraujo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people so attached to XMPP? There was no entity preventing XMPP from thriving, if the community really wanted XMPP, we would have had XMPP everywhere. But honestly, as someone who ran and tried to use XMPP for many years, the entire protocol was an unmaintained divided mess. And the XEPs didn't help, they felt like hacky workarounds to keep an old protocol up-to-date with the modern needs. Matrix feels very c…

I have very same impression. XMPP is basing on XML where parsing is order of magniture more complex than JSON. In lot of ways very similar to SOAP mess where you could not comunicate across different software because each of them supportet different set of SOAP extensions and good luck with communicating with web client.

Where does "order of magnitude" come from? In my experience, XML parsing is about three times slower than JSON and around two or three times the size. For most complex applications, this is not a show-stopper, because the bottleneck is elsewhere.

XML was a hype in 1999, when XMPP has been invented and JSON was a hype fifteen years later. When people invent protocols they just use what is trendy in the moment.

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#142

Post by ATsch » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

fro0116 wrote: post #8

I had a pretty positive view of Matrix until I came across this post and the follow up responses from the developer behind an unofficial Matrix server implementation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19365968 I'd say tread carefully given their apparent hostility towards competing server implementations, which is literally the only thing that makes the protocol meaningfully "federated" to begin with. This part in…

I think it's easy for bystanders to mistake hostility towards the developer of construct as hostility towards the project or the specific implementation without knowing the full context, however this is not the case.

The developer is without doubt a brilliant individual, however also extremely toxic. Not in the Linus sense, but in the Terry A Davis sense.

If anything, I think the matrix team has been too reasonable with him. He actually agreed with that himself, making fun of the team for not having the integrity to ban him out of sympathy for his situation and wanting to avoid the optics of banning a developer of an alternative server.

I have a lot of sympathy him as it sounds like he has a very serious substance abuse issue. I really really hope that he can beat the problems he faces, and I'm sure he will be accepted by the community again if he does. I understand that he is not fully under control of his situation but until he is, I don't think he should be tolerated when his presence is so hurtful to his victims and the community as a whole.

Here's some fun highlights I've experience first hand for context:

- spamming rooms with BSDM porn

- spamming rooms with links to his implementation

- hurling sexist abuse at a female matrix team member

- hurling sexually abusive language and rape threats at people

- numerous other drug-fueled breakdowns and caps locks tirades

- sockpuppeting and circumventing bans

- attempting to blackmail the team with his exploits

- deliberately bricking rooms

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#143

Post by oaiey » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

superfist wrote: post #94

pedroaraujo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people so attached to XMPP? There was no entity preventing XMPP from thriving, if the community really wanted XMPP, we would have had XMPP everywhere. But honestly, as someone who ran and tried to use XMPP for many years, the entire protocol was an unmaintained divided mess. And the XEPs didn't help, they felt like hacky workarounds to keep an old protocol up-to-date with the modern needs. Matrix feels very c…

I have very same impression. XMPP is basing on XML where parsing is order of magniture more complex than JSON. In lot of ways very similar to SOAP mess where you could not comunicate across different software because each of them supportet different set of SOAP extensions and good luck with communicating with web client.

XML is not popular because of JavaScript developers.

Coming from .NET, I do not care using JSON or XML, because the APIs System.Xml.Linq, Newtonsoft.Json and the upcoming System.Text.Json are a joy to use. I think the lack of good native representation of XML in JavaScript made it a unwanted choice.

Regards SOAP I tend to agree to you. Beyond the Basic profile it was a hassle to interop.

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#144

Post by DygFiul » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

paulcarroty wrote: post #119

MattJ100 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of us are still working on XMPP, and there are thousands of XMPP servers and many more users on the network. It's true that since the original Jabber project began in 1999 there was a vision of giving users freedom of software and service, yet that vision is still nowhere near reality in 2019. But we are still an active community and still work towards that vision. XMPP is not dead. Unfortunately Pidgin and Ad…

> and there are thousands of XMPP servers proof please. Checked the top 3-4 xmpp servers last summer and they almost died. IRC looks 1000000x more active.

XMPP is different from Matrix.

On Matrix practically everyone is matrix.org. The other public servers I tried are relatively slow and suffer hickups when joining rooms.

On XMPP, many people run servers in their companies, projects, or homes. Which are the "top 3-4 XMPP servers"? I probably do not even know them.

But you are right: XMPP is used mainly for IM, i.e. one-to-one dialogues or smaller, non-public chatrooms. I'm not aware of any huge, public chatrooms in XMPP, and for that I'm on IRC — via a gateway from XMPP called biboumi.

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#145

Post by zinid » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

Arathorn wrote: post #140

emias wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have a single monolithic versioned protocol rather than a finely granular cloud of XEPs which may or may not be compatible or best practices or implemented at any given point. I totally get where you came from, the fragmentation within the XMPP universe is annoying. The problem is that a monolithic spec doesn't solve this issue at all . It's not like code magically updates itself when you update a monolithic spec.…

I'm not sure that the problem is missing manpower on the implementation side - it's more that it's hard to know as a developer which current blend of XEPs is the recommended combination and which might have the most chance of working between a given client & server (and server & client) combo. Things like the XMPP compliance suite XEPs have helped a bit with this, but looking at the XEP list and trying to work out wh…

And admins will update their deployments instantly? Because of monolithic core? Interesting...

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#146

Post by DygFiul » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

Leace wrote: post #98

tannhaeuser wrote: post #55

I'm not very much into chat apps and protocols, but isn't it possible to just revive XMPP? Ten years ago we used Adium and Pidgin, and federated chat seemed like a solved problem. I understand XMPP with its extensions and use of XML fragments might be complex, but it sounds like matrix or another new protocol isn't easier. In a way, those willing to invest time into F/OSS chat apps have done the best they could with…

The problem of XMPP is just lack of good clients on some platforms, most notably for iOS. For Android there is an excellent Conversations.im client [0] that I've successfully use with my non-technical family and friends. (There is also Quicksy [1] that uses phone numbers for onboarding but it's XMPP all the way down). Conversations doesn't use a lot of battery (anecdata but it's 1% on my phone) and just works. [0]: h…

I have to agree and disagree. I agree, that XMPP clients are not very good. And horrible on iOS (and MacOSX). I disagree, that Matrix has good clients. Riot is an OK web client, but too slow and too confusing for my taste. And native desktop clients, like Nheko or Quaternion, are not yet very useful. XMPP has many more mature clients at the moment.

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#147

Post by emias » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

Arathorn wrote: post #140

emias wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have a single monolithic versioned protocol rather than a finely granular cloud of XEPs which may or may not be compatible or best practices or implemented at any given point. I totally get where you came from, the fragmentation within the XMPP universe is annoying. The problem is that a monolithic spec doesn't solve this issue at all . It's not like code magically updates itself when you update a monolithic spec.…

I'm not sure that the problem is missing manpower on the implementation side - it's more that it's hard to know as a developer which current blend of XEPs is the recommended combination and which might have the most chance of working between a given client & server (and server & client) combo. Things like the XMPP compliance suite XEPs have helped a bit with this, but looking at the XEP list and trying to work out wh…

> I'm not sure that the problem is missing manpower on the implementation side

If it isn't, why are there so many red crosses on https://matrix.org/docs/projects/clients-matrix and so many servers that aren't even capable of talking to matrix.org?

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#148

Post by bastawhiz » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

oaiey wrote: post #143

superfist wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have very same impression. XMPP is basing on XML where parsing is order of magniture more complex than JSON. In lot of ways very similar to SOAP mess where you could not comunicate across different software because each of them supportet different set of SOAP extensions and good luck with communicating with web client.

XML is not popular because of JavaScript developers. Coming from .NET, I do not care using JSON or XML, because the APIs System.Xml.Linq, Newtonsoft.Json and the upcoming System.Text.Json are a joy to use. I think the lack of good native representation of XML in JavaScript made it a unwanted choice. Regards SOAP I tend to agree to you. Beyond the Basic profile it was a hassle to interop.

>XML is not popular because of JavaScript developers.

This could not be more false. JavaScript is built around the DOM. You can parse XML with DOMParser and query it with the same interfaces that you build your UI with. The X in AJAX is XML. The "good native representation" of XML in JavaScript is the very core data structure that JavaScript was designed to interact with.

XML is not popular because it's complex. Escaping is hard. XML bombs make it unusable in its raw form.

Fundamentally, XML doesn't give you data structures that look like the ones you use in your application logic. You have to transform your data into something that makes sense in XML, then transform it back. With JSON (and other formats) the data structures that you're given are present in almost every programming language. You don't need to model your data differently for transit or storage than you do in your application logic.

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#149

Post by hedora » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

superfist wrote: post #94

pedroaraujo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people so attached to XMPP? There was no entity preventing XMPP from thriving, if the community really wanted XMPP, we would have had XMPP everywhere. But honestly, as someone who ran and tried to use XMPP for many years, the entire protocol was an unmaintained divided mess. And the XEPs didn't help, they felt like hacky workarounds to keep an old protocol up-to-date with the modern needs. Matrix feels very c…

I have very same impression. XMPP is basing on XML where parsing is order of magniture more complex than JSON. In lot of ways very similar to SOAP mess where you could not comunicate across different software because each of them supportet different set of SOAP extensions and good luck with communicating with web client.

> XMPP is basing on XML where parsing is order of magniture more complex than JSON

The last time I heard, there weren’t two JSON parsers that actually accepted the same language, so I’m not sure there’s an existence proof to back this statement up. :-)

XML is more complicated, but if we want to compare apples to apples, it’s only due to the white space sensitivity. (dtd, schema, etc don’t have analogous technologies in the json world, and at least xpath is a standard, unlike jq).

Re: Matrix 1.0 – Are We Ready Yet?

#150

Post by DygFiul » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

tannhaeuser wrote: post #55

I'm not very much into chat apps and protocols, but isn't it possible to just revive XMPP? Ten years ago we used Adium and Pidgin, and federated chat seemed like a solved problem. I understand XMPP with its extensions and use of XML fragments might be complex, but it sounds like matrix or another new protocol isn't easier. In a way, those willing to invest time into F/OSS chat apps have done the best they could with…

Nice, if XMPP works for you, but I hope do not use Pidgin or Adium nowadays. They still work, but AFAIK, they do not support newer XMPP features, such as encryption using OMEMO, HTTP upload, message archive management, etc.

There are nice, modern XMPP clients like Conversations on Android, Gajim on Linux and Windows, etc. that do support the latest XMPP features and are much more pleasant to use today.