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Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

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Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#141

Post by pmiller2 »

rajeshmr wrote: post #128

You realize that this approach is flawed the moment there are blogposts / books ( e.g. Cracking the coding interview ) on how to crack it. The how to crack 'x' becomes a field altogether ( coaching / youtube videos / blogs / books etc ). Also, platforms like hackerrank are adding fuel to fire. I read the CEO write somewhere that he wished the below "were taught in schools : 1) Communicating complex ideas with clarity…

I upvoted you based on the first 90% of your reply, but that last full paragraph is just silly. Sure, you can evaluate someone more fully in 2 weeks of working with them than in an afternoon of interviews, but who's going to spend 2 weeks working with you, just for the possibility of continued employment? No one who isn't both desperate and unemployed, that's who.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#142

Post by ambulancechaser »

rajeshmr wrote: post #128

You realize that this approach is flawed the moment there are blogposts / books ( e.g. Cracking the coding interview ) on how to crack it. The how to crack 'x' becomes a field altogether ( coaching / youtube videos / blogs / books etc ). Also, platforms like hackerrank are adding fuel to fire. I read the CEO write somewhere that he wished the below "were taught in schools : 1) Communicating complex ideas with clarity…

"When your metric becomes a target it ceases to be a metric".

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#143

Post by gaustin »

wiremine wrote: post #132

At my consultancy we recently streamlined our interview process: 1. Phone screen which takes 15 or 20 minutes. 2. The candidate fills out an essay, including showing us some code they're proud of. 3. If the essay ticks the boxes we conduct a 1 hour on site interview. We use the same a set of questions for every candidate, so the investment is easy to manage, and our team has a shared set of expectations on what is go…

How do you handle two separate onsites for people that have to travel to get to your office?

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#144

Post by rpm33 »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #97
castlecrasher2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is kind off strange for a non US resident to grasp. I've worked for two non-technical companies as a software developer and one highly technical company, and interviewed at a few Silicon Valley companies. The difference between the interview processes is staggering; my current job's interview was two hours of conversation, no code tests, just a general assessment of "do you know what you're doing" by the hiring…

> “The SV companies must have a good reason for this” In fact, no, nobody has a good reason for it.

Well it started off with Microsoft in the 90's, then Google in 2000's and then it just became common for every company in SV to conduct these programming interviews.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#145

Post by bunderbunder »

tombert wrote: post #125
griffinkelly wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with some folks who were decent engineers who originally didn't get offers from FANG companies because they blew the interview; they later studied their ass off on leetcode and got offers. This did not make them better engineers at all. Ultimately, its just studying for the test, very much like the ACT/SAT in high school. You can be great at taking tests but ultimately a terrible student or vice versa.

I go back and forth about how I feel about doing heavy algorithm/data-structure stuff in interviews. On the one hand, I have never once written any kind of sort algorithm or LRU cache by hand for a production system, because why would I? Pretty much every language's standard library has a fairly-optimized sort and caching thing built in, and if they don't then there's still probably a million outside libraries to do…

I'd be curious to see if there is any value in questions that focus on understanding of the basic ideas behind algorithms and data structures as a subject. Time complexity, sure, but what I would really want to know is, given a description of a data structure and some algorithms for manipulating it, can you identify the invariants that should be true of these rules?

That sort of thing might give a better sense of if someone has an instinct for how to verify whether the code is working. And, by extension, if they have a grasp of some concepts that go a long way toward helping a person come up with more reliable and maintainable designs.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#146

Post by Consultant32452 »

je42 wrote: post #111

I usually ask what's your strongest language; then ask questions about that programming language. f.e. if it is python: > how would you explain the with statement to a junior developer ? then increasingly difficult questions that go into the language runtime/concepts. one other favourite question of mine is: > Imagine, you got a standard website the serves data from a database. When a customer types in the url into t…

I'm like the senior engineer you mentioned. I'll spend as much time as possible on them to see if I can wear out the attention of the interviewer. They usually give up by the time I get to how SSL handshakes work.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#147

Post by high_derivative »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138
high_derivative wrote: post #131

Having recently gone through some interviewing (for machine learning research), a very cynical but overlooked aspect (in this thread) is the following: After receiving an offer from a big tech company, the interviewing process has already completely turned me off from the idea of working there. Now despite this being a dream position for many and me having no alternative but to take it currently, the smug interviewer…

Many interview processes generally paint the company in a grimmer picture than it actually is. So I would do additional research than turning down an offer because of a bad interviewing experience. Of course, you are completely in your right to do so, but it might not be the most optimal behavior. Usually, interviewers are just bad at interviewing and aren't really aware of what proper behavior is. It actually isn't…

Oh I won't turn down the offer, as said, I have no choice and it would be an irrational career move to do so.

The ultra-negative interviewing experience just completely changed the mindset with which I will go into that job. This then got me thinking about the hidden cost of a negative interviewing process.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#148

Post by chillacy »

dfilppi wrote: post #124
bunderbunder wrote: post #120

Aside from all the things mentioned in the article, this also seems like a fairly predictable application of Goodhart's Law: "Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." Once upon a time, skill at doing these sorts of problems might have correlated (imperfectly) with general aptitude as a programmer or software engineer. But the very act of trying t…

The tests have become a pure filter, screen out those who dont study heavily prior to taking them. They are uncorrelated from the candidates ability at every day tasks.

It’s like an industry hazing ritual. How bad do you want it?

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#149

Post by rajeshmr »

selestify wrote: post #137
rajeshmr wrote: post #128

You realize that this approach is flawed the moment there are blogposts / books ( e.g. Cracking the coding interview ) on how to crack it. The how to crack 'x' becomes a field altogether ( coaching / youtube videos / blogs / books etc ). Also, platforms like hackerrank are adding fuel to fire. I read the CEO write somewhere that he wished the below "were taught in schools : 1) Communicating complex ideas with clarity…

Who has time to spend a few weeks off from their full time job just to interview?

Hey, i have had a couple of recruiters who have approached with this idea. Basically, the recruiter says, okay i give you a week or two for this task to be complete ( the call is basically 30 mins or so explaining the problem and getting to know the basics about me ) and then post the time alloted, a sync up to see how you have solved it and to explain the design or solution or something like that. Only a couple of times have i had this experience. There is no additional overhead on the recruiter apart from reviewing it post the time alloted.

It felt better, because the interview was more like a typical work like situation. In work too, we are assigned tasks, and we update the progress.

Maybe its a bit idealistic, but then we all like to dream about utopia, don't we :)

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#150

Post by rajeshmr »

pmiller2 wrote: post #141
rajeshmr wrote: post #128

You realize that this approach is flawed the moment there are blogposts / books ( e.g. Cracking the coding interview ) on how to crack it. The how to crack 'x' becomes a field altogether ( coaching / youtube videos / blogs / books etc ). Also, platforms like hackerrank are adding fuel to fire. I read the CEO write somewhere that he wished the below "were taught in schools : 1) Communicating complex ideas with clarity…

I upvoted you based on the first 90% of your reply, but that last full paragraph is just silly. Sure, you can evaluate someone more fully in 2 weeks of working with them than in an afternoon of interviews, but who's going to spend 2 weeks working with you, just for the possibility of continued employment? No one who isn't both desperate and unemployed, that's who.

Hey i just replied to another similar comment. Please check it out and suggest your opinion. Am curious to know what you think :)
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