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I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

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Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#141

Post by weehobbes »

nwah1 wrote: post #7

I've been a colemak user for a number of years, which has similar pros and cons. I would say that it is not worth it for most people to change. You could get a lot of the benefit of colemak, with none of the pain, by converting your caps lock key into a second backspace. The benefits are that it is slightly more comfortable, and you'll have less people trying to use your computer. Also, prior to learning colemak, I h…

I love Colemak and have used it for years. Typing with it feels absolutely great compared to QWERTY (mostly with less finger travel to reach common keys) but I agree that it's not worth the switch for most people. It took me about 2-3 weeks to be able to type functionally, and then about 6 months before I was as fluent as I was with QWERTY. Hardest part was remembering that the S key was moved right by one key - I kept mistyping S for almost a year.

I did try Dvorak before Colemak and really hated it. Not only was Ctrl+XCVZ a pain, I found that my left pinky got very strained because of the position of the L key which is a very common letter in the English language.

After learning Colemak, I tried practicing QWERTY occasionally to be "bi-keyboard" but I just could not do it. The more I practiced QWERTY, the worse I got with Colemak. So eventually I had to drop QWERTY. Now, whenever I use someone else's computer (usually just to do a small task), I have to hunt-and-peck and it makes me sad.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#142

Post by dgellow »

pinouchon wrote: post #93

Same journey for me. I went from using AZERTY without touch typing to QGMLWY with touch typing ( http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization ). I practised with https://thetypingcat.com/ and zty.pe. It took ~3 months@30m/day to get to 60wpm, then I made the switch and it took about a week to get comfortable using it everyday. Some takeways: - the keyboard layout doesn't matter that much, what matters most is tou…

> On OSx, I use this horror of a script: https://github.com/pinouchon/keybest/blob/master/rewrite_c/a.... It works fine, except that some password inputs use the mapping, some don't, which is slightly annoying.

For macOS you can use Ukulele to create your own layout.

https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id...

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#143

Post by artsyca »

jlg23 wrote: post #132

The author was literally not the target audience. Unless you are already touch-typing, there won't be much of a benefit: * all keys are equally easy to reach when you hover your finger 10cm above the keyboard while searching for a key * you are moving fingers, hands and arms much more and with much more variety than when touch-typing, the risk of repetitive strain injuries is therefore lower * you are typing much, mu…

I've been using Dvorak since 2003 or earlier when I read this post by Matt Mullenweg of WordPress fame: https://ma.tt/2003/08/on-the-dvorak-keyboard-layout/ It's a night and day difference. Watching everyone from my doctor to my colleagues twisting around their fingers to use QWERTY is painful and I'm seriously typing this without even glancing at the keyboard

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#144

Post by tomhoward »

kkarakk wrote: post #121
Pimpus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> RSI Read the Mind-Body Prescription, you might be surprised at what you learn. RSI is not something we should be afraid of in this day and age, with everything we know about the human organism.

>Mind-Body Prescription In this acclaimed volume, Dr. Sarno reveals how many painful conditions-including most neck and back pain, migraine, repetitive stress injuries, whiplash, and tendonitises-are rooted in repressed emotions (book description from amazon) Excuse me while i chuckle heartily

Half-jokingly: it's repressed emotions that usually cause reactions like that :)

I haven't read Sarno's book but I've read the books by another prominent author in this genre, after battling stubborn health conditions for years without respite.

Addressing repressed emotions has been the thing that made the difference for me, without doubt.

Other things have been important too (diet, exercise, sleep, etc) - but none of that made a persistent difference without addressing the emotions, and none of those things were possible to adhere to consistently without also addressing emotional issues.

I know several people who have gone through a similar journey and all found that the emotional approach was the one that worked when others didn't.

And yep, we all know a lot about the placebo effect, thanks.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#145

Post by valerij »

blunte wrote: post #69

Considering the author did not begin the Dvorak journey as a touch typist, their experience doesn't carry much weight with me. I took the time to learn Dvorak (years ago), and I found it very much nicer for typing prose. However, I couldn't code with it (and I didn't try a code-focused version). Perhaps I should have tried different Dvorak variations to find one that was still better than QWERTY for writing while als…

> why why why do people use the international keyboard layout

speaking as someone who switched from DE_DE to US_INT_W_DEAD_KEYS it was to actually programming easier.

i did not need special german keys (äöüß) often while coding so having programming relevant `[]{}'\"|` at their expense, while still being able to access language specific symbols via dead keys, was preferable.

international layout also gives me the ability to type specific other-language symbols like `Øçµ` or special typography like `…‽¿` way easier compared to german

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#146

Post by heavenlyblue »

blunte wrote: post #115
Kiro wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an aside, why why why do people use the international keyboard layout? That's like saying "why do characters outside standard English exist?". I honestly don't understand what you're complaining about. People use international keyboard layouts because they want to write another language than English.

UK and Netherlands use an international keyboard with a tilda ~ key where the return key should be, and a backslash key where the left shift should be. To hit return requires actually moving the right hand to reach return. How often is that tilda needed? That is a poor trade. Moving the shift key away is even worse, because it's a modifier key. Now you cannot press shift with your left pinky finger while also reachin…

>> How often is that tilda needed? That is a poor trade.

That tilda is needed every time I need to access my home directory on Linux, and the backslash key is also a pipe key when you press shift - so I can use a pipe in command line using a single hand.

I actually come from a country with US keyboard by-default. Now, whenever possible - I switch to UK layout even on MacBooks. UK layout is actually wonderful for development.

I can obviously see though why one can ask why is it this way.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#147

Post by sovietmudkipz »

jlg23 wrote: post #132

The author was literally not the target audience. Unless you are already touch-typing, there won't be much of a benefit: * all keys are equally easy to reach when you hover your finger 10cm above the keyboard while searching for a key * you are moving fingers, hands and arms much more and with much more variety than when touch-typing, the risk of repetitive strain injuries is therefore lower * you are typing much, mu…

> as a lisp programmer I don't care about curly or square brackets, when I have to hack on other languages, I adapt my layout to make required special characters more easily accessible

I find it fascinating that people change their keyboard layouts frequently.

For me, there seems to be plenty of mental complexity to contend with that adding n > 1 keyboard interfaces would overload my ability to work efficiently.

I’m also worried about having to set up something complex just to get to work.

What are your thoughts? I’m just curious how you think about these issues

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#148

Post by dwringer »

4thaccount wrote: post #140
dwringer wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative to using a different key layout is to use a contoured matrix-style ergonomic keyboard (where all keys are arranged in symmetric columns and curved to fit the hand). I did this a couple of years ago and can similarly report an immediate cessation of pains associated with typing, although I kept a QWERTY layout. The costs and adjustment period involved are still not completely trivial, though.

Which keyboard do you use? I use a cheap Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 which works great. I may be ready to step up though.

The one I got was the Kinesis Advantage 2, which I almost hesitate to recommend due to the sticker shock. I'd recommend trying to see if the idea of a more symmetrical typing posture appeals to you enough to be worth it (maybe just some non-typing exercises at your desk). I was at the point of having already adjusted my chair, desk height, and wrist angle (making sure not to rest the wrists while actually typing), and the keyboard was something of a last resort. That said, I am very satisfied and wish it were priced more competitively so it could be a more ubiquitous option. I ended up getting a hard shell briefcase to carry it around in while I learned to type on it (which took around 2-4 weeks, after which point switching back and forth with normal keyboards became less of a hassle).

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#149

Post by V-2 »

ken wrote: post #127
coldtea wrote: post #15

It's not yes. It was non-scientifically created and self-promoted to hell from the inventor in the early 20th century, for commercial interests. And there are a lot of myths about Qwerty too: https://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html Not to mention that for programmers it's even more complicated. Most of our symbols we use most of the time (e.g. { } ; -, _) have nothing to do with DVORAK vs QWERTY, and the distri…

> Oh, and since this is not 1970 anymore, consider that computer users come from all other the world, and type in their native languages, where QWERTY vs DVORAK means even less. How do you figure? Alternating vowels and consonants is fairly universal.

This is only one component of the optimization though. Eg. letter frequency will be different. For instance, the relative frequency of "z" is about 4.9% in Polish, whereas as low as 0.07% in English (according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency).

The same goes for what the most popular 2-grams and 3-grams are, and conversely, the calculated stroke path (or how much do the typist's fingers have to 'travel', independently of the hand alternation rate), the use of the weakest fingers enforced by a given layout, etc.

This likely doesn't nullify all the benefits of Dvorak, or some other English-optimized layouts - but it certainly reduces them, while the adoption cost is still the same.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#150

Post by boomlinde »

cecilpl2 wrote: post #11

I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school, and I highly recommend it. I agree that switching is a pain in the ass. It will make you essentially unable to type for about 2-4 weeks. Ctrl-C/V/X is a valid concern. I fixed it by mapping mouse buttons to copy/paste, and also getting an Advantage2 Kinesis into which I've programming custom keybinding for Undo/Redo/Copy/Cut/Paste.…

> I can still touch type qwerty and often do at work on co-workers' keyboards. I'm pretty slow though, about 40wpm (100 on dvorak), and I usually have to look at the keyboard.

It's not touch typing if you have to look at the keyboard.

> Whenever I am forced to type Qwerty I feel like I am doing finger calisthenics. It's tiring.

Maybe it is generally tiring to use a layout that you're not the most comfortable with.

> I plan to spend my entire career and much of my free time in front of a computer. Why on earth would I subject myself to anything less than the best interface system possible? That would be like a professional chef using the $20 knife block from the grocery store, or your doctor using WebMD to try and diagnose you.

That's an interesting perspective. Have you also made the best choice of interface for your editor, your operating system, your window manager and all the other tools you use on a daily basis? Do you have the best chair, the best desk, the best office environment etc? If not, can you be sure that you aren't a chef with a really good knife block but a dull set of knives, a terrible stove or a slow dishwasher?

Personally, I don't have the resources to research and apply the best choices in every possible area. I find that this is true for a lot of people. The POSIX tools I use on a daily basis certainly aren't ideal, neither is the programming language I currently work with. I still make small, incremental improvements to my workflow that I believe are more significant than a keyboard layout for some small tens of wpm improvement in typing speed.

That said, I rarely spend a whole day typing. Much more of my time is spent considering what to type, a process that is normally only briefly interrupted by bursts of actual typing.

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