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JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

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Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#141
post #134
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as one example, wind resistant umbrellas have an actual useful feature regular umbrellas don't have.

Given that regular umbrellas cost 3 euros on average, how much do those cost?

They are significantly more, but it's not just replacement cost avoidance that's the benefit. They are easier to handle in wind, keeping you dryer and not having to fight the umbrella.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#142
post #24

I really want to see some innovation in the email space. The landscape is like a sea of false promises and dashed dreams. SMTP is one of the bread-and-butters of the internet, yet it just doesn't seem to be moving forward (maybe that's for the best), and no one's building extensions on top of it. Maybe I'm naive in thinking it was possible but we could have avoided this whole "make an account on X messenger so we can…

Yes, postfix has been around for so long and it is very solid. However, to run a mail server nowadays, it still needs a lot of configuration work and even additional daemons to add SPF checks, forwarding with SRS, and DKIM signatures. All of this is possible to be added though, which speaks for the flexibility of the postfix design.

This is exactly what I was hoping to add to it with my postmgr project. There's projects like Mailu[0] which are fantastic as well.

[0]: https://github.com/Mailu/mailu

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#143
post #5

I really want to see some innovation in the email space. The landscape is like a sea of false promises and dashed dreams. SMTP is one of the bread-and-butters of the internet, yet it just doesn't seem to be moving forward (maybe that's for the best), and no one's building extensions on top of it. Maybe I'm naive in thinking it was possible but we could have avoided this whole "make an account on X messenger so we can…

"if someone had just jammed XMPP and SMTP together" - wasn't that kind of what Google Wave was aiming for?

Yes, but no -- I wasn't one of the Google Wave faithful so I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I what I wanted was the ability to extend SMTP all together to include the possibility of negotiating XMPP -- almost like what's happened with HTTP 1.1/2/3 evolving to support new connection types and content types/etc.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I get that. I get there is a whole weird and wacky world of email use that is considered legitimate and needs to work that way for a myriad of reasons. I don't get why their MTA cannot at least have an option to reject mail from your domains if it's not being sent using your account credentials. The average layperson will not get that. I'm fairly sure if my mother received an email that wasn't delivered to a th…

But that’s the point, you can send a spoofed email to your mother that will not go into her spam folder, even if she uses Gmail. The only way Google could protect you is if the From address is from @gmail.com (maybe, not completely sure). But if you have your own domain, you can’t have that protection. Sure, you might not be able to use Google’s own servers to send that email, but email is federated so you can use so…

> But that’s the point [...]

No, that's not the point.

> Sure, you might not be able to use Google’s own servers to send that email

That is the point. Why does Fastmail allow this where Google doesn't. At best, it's ignorant and intentionally misleading. At worst, downright malicious and ripe for abuse.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#145

FastMail is behind this protocol and from what I've read JMAP has evolved out of their web interface. I've been a happy customer, even though lately I flirted with going back to GSuite for my personal email, but after a trial realized that Gmail does many things well, except for being a good email service. So I went back to FastMail and renewed for another 2 years. Seeing this new protocol is exciting, because JMAP i…

> Also from what I understand JMAP should be friendly for mobile usage. They kept notifications out of it, you're supposed to implement notifications using whatever the mobile platform provides. Interacting via JMAP is via plain HTTP requests, which is super cool.

Sounds actually not cool. Is there really no standardized way to do notifications? The world consists not only of shitty mobile walled gardens which insist on or strongly favor their proprietary implementations.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most mail clients are running on mobile (judging by number of devices). Long-running connections on mobile are a bad idea because of network reliability and battery concerns.

Hu? Constantly establishing new connections saves power vs. maintaining one estalished connection? Could you explain how that works? And could you also explain how constantly making new connections makes things work more reliably over unreliable links? Like, does that allow you to transfer data when the network link is down? Does the fact that inside the TLS/TCP connection data is transferred via HTTP instead of IMAP…

> Constantly establishing new connections saves power vs. maintaining one estalished connection? Could you explain how that works?

If you maintain a connection you have a leave the modem powered. If you connect every so often (1 minute, 10 minutes, whatever) the modem can be powered down in between. The modem and the screen are the top two users of power in a phone so this is a big win.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#147
post #12

The main failure in mail standards is a lack of explicit utf8 clean support lhs@rhs -if this got fixed (it's often called universal acceptance) a lot of things about mail as an ecology would improve. I have view on the spam thing. The whole "your idea will not work because" meme is hugely destructive of innovation in email. It sucks energy and mindshare. It's classic old timer put down. What would (imnsho opinion) ha…

Paying might reduce the spam, but some spammers are perfectly fine with paying. Just look at text spam and robocallers.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#148
post #145

FastMail is behind this protocol and from what I've read JMAP has evolved out of their web interface. I've been a happy customer, even though lately I flirted with going back to GSuite for my personal email, but after a trial realized that Gmail does many things well, except for being a good email service. So I went back to FastMail and renewed for another 2 years. Seeing this new protocol is exciting, because JMAP i…

> Also from what I understand JMAP should be friendly for mobile usage. They kept notifications out of it, you're supposed to implement notifications using whatever the mobile platform provides. Interacting via JMAP is via plain HTTP requests, which is super cool. Sounds actually not cool. Is there really no standardized way to do notifications? The world consists not only of shitty mobile walled gardens which insist…

[deleted]

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#149

FastMail is behind this protocol and from what I've read JMAP has evolved out of their web interface. I've been a happy customer, even though lately I flirted with going back to GSuite for my personal email, but after a trial realized that Gmail does many things well, except for being a good email service. So I went back to FastMail and renewed for another 2 years. Seeing this new protocol is exciting, because JMAP i…

I considered FM a while back but... you pay per account! $50/account no less! I separate my email into three accounts across two domains and my wife does the same and I have kids who'll have their own email addresses at some point. I can't even begin to consider using it at the price point I presume I'd be in.

$30 for a smaller inbox though. I have all my email since 90s in there and it all still fits just fine.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#150

I really want to see some innovation in the email space. The landscape is like a sea of false promises and dashed dreams. SMTP is one of the bread-and-butters of the internet, yet it just doesn't seem to be moving forward (maybe that's for the best), and no one's building extensions on top of it. Maybe I'm naive in thinking it was possible but we could have avoided this whole "make an account on X messenger so we can…

Email is "good enough". The real hole is "instant messaging". Somehow every few years we got from ICQ to AIM to Paltalk to Skype to Facebook Messenger to Slack to ... (at least Altassian had the decency to take HipChat behind the woodshed and shoot it) The strange thing is that these services dry up, blow away, get replaced, but they don't seem to improve on what came before. There is a standard, XMPP, but the only p…

I didn't explain it fully, but the alternate future I was imagining was one where SMTP could evolve/instantiate a connection for "ASAP email" -- AKA instant messaging. Kinda like how HTTP can upgrade to websockets.

There would obviously be a lot to work out, but if something like this was in the SMTP standard (or at least introduced), I think eventually email providers would race to differentiate themselves with support for it, and we might not be where we are today. In my view there's no reason to even require the SMTP servers to serve chat traffic -- as long as they could hand off reasonably, and everything spoke the language as specified in the spec (or at least came close).

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