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New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

reuters.com

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Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#141

Post by dunpeal »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #126
dunpeal wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed some of these links. The main argument appears to be that the sanctions created economic hardship, and that in turns caused suffering and death. That's a natural result of any sanctions. You may decide to oppose any sanctions to avoid this result, but when the alternative is violent military, there's a good argument to why this is the lesser evil.

>>That's a natural result of any sanctions. Which contradicts the OP's claim that sanctions don't create casualties.

Yes, though it can be a matter of phrasing. Technically, no American killed any of these kids.

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#142

Post by dunpeal »

1024core wrote: post #133
dunpeal wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed some of these links. The main argument appears to be that the sanctions created economic hardship, and that in turns caused suffering and death. That's a natural result of any sanctions. You may decide to oppose any sanctions to avoid this result, but when the alternative is violent military, there's a good argument to why this is the lesser evil.

At least in military conflict, there is some lip-service paid to avoiding civilian casualties (Geneva Convention, etc.). But sanctions are not allowed even this little fig leaf.

During a war there's typically a lot more casualties. Lip-service is irrelevant.

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#143

Post by jessaustin »

dunpeal wrote: post #140
jessaustin wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem a bit disingenuous here. Upthread you needed "a source" for the obvious fact that hospitals are part of a national economy. Now the deaths of children are "a natural result". Which is it, really? Maybe it's just good for USA policy to kill kids, by one way or another? Anyway, sanctions are usually just a pretext for war. (Every military disaster USA has perpetrated during my parents' lifetimes has been prece…

> Upthread you needed "a source" for the obvious fact that hospitals are part of a national economy. No, I asked for a source for the claim that the US blocked essential medical supplies as part of the embargo. > "The alternative" is what every president from Washington through Arthur would have advocated: stay on our own continent and mind our own business. Wouldn't mind that at all! However, since I don't make thes…

We voters don't make either decision; our rulers in the military-industrial-media complex decide when to drag us into war. It's still the case that sanctions are usually just pretexts for war. If sanctions themselves were neutral policies, that might be acceptable. However as documented upthread they kill lots of innocent children directly. Most humans would consider that to be a bad thing.

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#144

Post by vkou »

EpicEng wrote: post #121
vkou wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What tools do we have available to us to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons and persuade bad actors? Why would a country sitting on the largest nuclear stockpile in the world consider nuclear proliferation a bad thing? After all, I am frequently told that MAD prevents wars, no?

Mostly because we haven't been running around talking about wiping other nations off of the map. Obviously we have our own issues, but you can't honestly be proposing a moral equivalence between the US and Iran.

No, we have instead started a good dozen coups, and a dozen offensive wars (with varying levels of justification).

I am pretty sure that if the targets of those wars had WMDs, those wars wouldn't have taken place.

Incidentally, how many times has Israel been invaded since it illegally acquired WMDs?

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#145

Post by dunpeal »

jessaustin wrote: post #143
dunpeal wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Upthread you needed "a source" for the obvious fact that hospitals are part of a national economy. No, I asked for a source for the claim that the US blocked essential medical supplies as part of the embargo. > "The alternative" is what every president from Washington through Arthur would have advocated: stay on our own continent and mind our own business. Wouldn't mind that at all! However, since I don't make thes…

We voters don't make either decision; our rulers in the military-industrial-media complex decide when to drag us into war. It's still the case that sanctions are usually just pretexts for war. If sanctions themselves were neutral policies, that might be acceptable. However as documented upthread they kill lots of innocent children directly. Most humans would consider that to be a bad thing.

Sanctions are often an attempt to curb aggression and prevent war.

Take the sanctions against Russia or Iran. Sure, we can be against those sanctions. Then Russia will invade the rest of Ukraine, killing many thousands.

It's the easiest thing in the world to say "I'm just against any sort of killing". Makes you seem benevolent. However, in reality we must choose between alternatives that are often all bad, some just a bit more so.

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#146

Post by jessaustin »

dunpeal wrote: post #145
jessaustin wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We voters don't make either decision; our rulers in the military-industrial-media complex decide when to drag us into war. It's still the case that sanctions are usually just pretexts for war. If sanctions themselves were neutral policies, that might be acceptable. However as documented upthread they kill lots of innocent children directly. Most humans would consider that to be a bad thing.

Sanctions are often an attempt to curb aggression and prevent war. Take the sanctions against Russia or Iran. Sure, we can be against those sanctions. Then Russia will invade the rest of Ukraine, killing many thousands. It's the easiest thing in the world to say "I'm just against any sort of killing". Makes you seem benevolent. However, in reality we must choose between alternatives that are often all bad, some just…

You keep repeating that (probably because you've heard it repeated a lot), but it isn't true. Sanctions at most times and in most places have been pretexts for future wars. Sanctions are certainly not what have kept Russia from invading Ukraine: Ukrainians with guns and tanks have done that. Sanctions certainly have not caused Russia to give back the Crimea to Ukraine. It's like any disputed territory inhabited by mostly-sane people. The residents who wanted Russian rule are happy, many of those who didn't have moved back to Ukraine, and it's not as though any of the civic institutions really work differently anyway.

I am not "against any sort of killing". If I have a good enough reason to kill I will do it. I have killed lots of animals while hunting and dealing with livestock. I am not "benevolent". However, I am also not evil. It is for that reason that I don't want my tax dollars used to kill innocent children in foreign lands. The killing done by Assad, Qaddafi, Saddam, and the Taliban is on their own heads. (The killing done by ISIS is on ours, because we created and sustained ISIS.) In my parents' lifetimes, we have never improved a situation overseas by invading. By that measure I suppose sanctions are a little better, because it's arguable that e.g. South Africa was improved by sanctions...

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#147

Post by dunpeal »

jessaustin wrote: post #146
dunpeal wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanctions are often an attempt to curb aggression and prevent war. Take the sanctions against Russia or Iran. Sure, we can be against those sanctions. Then Russia will invade the rest of Ukraine, killing many thousands. It's the easiest thing in the world to say "I'm just against any sort of killing". Makes you seem benevolent. However, in reality we must choose between alternatives that are often all bad, some just…

You keep repeating that (probably because you've heard it repeated a lot), but it isn't true. Sanctions at most times and in most places have been pretexts for future wars. Sanctions are certainly not what have kept Russia from invading Ukraine: Ukrainians with guns and tanks have done that. Sanctions certainly have not caused Russia to give back the Crimea to Ukraine. It's like any disputed territory inhabited by mo…

> Sanctions are certainly not what have kept Russia from invading Ukraine: Ukrainians with guns and tanks have done that.

The Russians have a ton more guns and tanks.

Like it or not, Russians don't invade Ukraine because of repercussions, and sanctions are part of that.

If we were back in 1940, the Russians would have taken over Ukraine long ago.

> (The killing done by ISIS is on ours, because we created and sustained ISIS.)

Conspiracy theory.

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#148

Post by dragonwriter »

dunpeal wrote: post #147
jessaustin wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep repeating that (probably because you've heard it repeated a lot), but it isn't true. Sanctions at most times and in most places have been pretexts for future wars. Sanctions are certainly not what have kept Russia from invading Ukraine: Ukrainians with guns and tanks have done that. Sanctions certainly have not caused Russia to give back the Crimea to Ukraine. It's like any disputed territory inhabited by mo…

> Sanctions are certainly not what have kept Russia from invading Ukraine: Ukrainians with guns and tanks have done that. The Russians have a ton more guns and tanks. Like it or not, Russians don't invade Ukraine because of repercussions, and sanctions are part of that. If we were back in 1940, the Russians would have taken over Ukraine long ago. > (The killing done by ISIS is on ours, because we created and sustaine…

> Like it or not, Russians don't invade Ukraine

Yes, like it or not, they do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_interventio...

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#149

Post by EpicEng »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #129
EpicEng wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's your suggestion? Country X won't play nice, what do you do? given your moral stance on sanctions I can't imagine you would propose war. So what are the options? What tools do we have available to us to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons and persuade bad actors? The world isn't some idyllic place where there's always a solution to every problem which harms no one. Yes, the citizenry often gets caught…

You act like the US is just an innocent judge forced to punish those naughty countries. We have now spent forty years economically attacking Iran, paid people tons of money to kill Iranians, invaded and destroyed a neighboring country, and spent the entire time threatening Iran with nuclear/non-nuclear destruction. Yet they are considered the "bad actor."

These sanctions are not unilateral actions by the US, so no, I don't "act that way". These sanctions we're passed by the UN, of which China is a permanent member.

Re: New documents link Huawei to suspected front companies in Iran, Syria

#150

Post by EpicEng »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #130
EpicEng wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because we haven't been running around talking about wiping other nations off of the map. Obviously we have our own issues, but you can't honestly be proposing a moral equivalence between the US and Iran.

The US has actively caused many nations to be wiped off the map, including attempting to remove Yemen right now.

I'm not arguing I'm favor of covert attempts to iverthrow foreign governments, but wanting to replace a regime and wanting to murder all _citizens_ is not even remotely the same thing.
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