Live data from Hacker News

Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

nytimes.com

141–150 of 207 posts

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#141
post #22

I commend Facebook for allocating more resources to enforce its community standards, what's the point in outlining standards if there is no enforcement? I'm not surprised that the initial implementation has had some rough patches. For this effort to be successful Facebook and other platforms are going to have to heavily invest in building relationships with cultural experts and stakeholders in hundreds of different c…

> if Facebook is really going to make this effort a priority they should publish a report detailing its efforts.

Facebook does exactly this. The second report was published a little over a month ago: https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2018/11/enforcing-our-community...

Disclaimer: I work at Facebook, on Integrity, so this is near and dear to my heart.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing that additional social networks will solve the problem. How exactly do additional social networks solve this problem? Won't they be even more inclined to serve addictive content under the threat of cut throat competition. For example, WhatsApp too used a lot for propagation of rumours. How will additional social networks make people immune from their biases, or magically neutralize all the extrme opini…

Additional social networks will prevent Facebook from imposing a one-size-fits-all speech policy on the entire world. Yes, some countries' social networks will be filled with hate speech and conspiracy theories. Other countries will ban such speech, just like Germany bans Nazi memorabilia. Yet other countries will err towards allowing a free marketplace of ideas, like the US does with its First Amendment guarantees.…

I wouldn't trust my own government with moderating the social network activity of our nation. They are so corrupt that I can't even begin to describe. It's better in the hands of a multinational, at least their interests are related to ads, not political suppression :(

In my opinion the problem with social networks is just the effect of an underlying cause, which is that many people are so poor, uneducated, sick or old that they only care about the immediate future. Religious and inflexible people will believe anything that reaffirms their beliefs. They will bite at all fake news and spread it around and vote in a disastrous way for the future of the country.

Unfortunately there will always be a part of the population that lacks long term concern. You can't improve social networks when people are lacking long term concern, which is usually the domain of young educated professionals, who have the most to lose from this folly.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out what happened in Rwanda. This one random guy was going on the radio and spewing hate and lies, encouraging people to pick up machetes and kill their neighbors and family members based on this nuanced, arbitrary colonial racial construct. It went viral. Low key, I'm basically horrified of the hash tag version of this popping up. There's a poignant black mirror episode about this I believe. Although... I do b…

> Check out what happened in Rwanda. This one random guy was going on the radio and spewing hate and lies, encouraging people to pick up machetes and kill their neighbors and family members based on this nuanced, arbitrary colonial racial construct. > It went viral. What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide > The genocide was planned by members of the core Hutu political elite, many of whom occupied positi…

Thank you for pushing back, I appreciate that. I see now that I presented an overly simplistic narrative, which I took from a documentary long ago when I was young.

> Who was this random guy? Who told you this story, or where do you have it from? How did this claim go viral, that one random guy on Rwanda ranted on the radio, and it ended in genocide?

I picked this up from a documentary I saw years ago.. It was probably made in the late 90s or early 2000s. I don't remember what it was called, although I think I saw it on PBS.

The following article gives a very good overview of the origins of the myth I perpetuated in my above comment (starting on the bottom of page 3 is a section Common Claims about Media Effects in Rwanda—and a Critique):

https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/20100423-atrauss-rtlm-radio-hat...

And a quote from that section:

> Pulitzer-Prize winner Samantha Power claims, “Killers in Rwanda often carried a machete in one hand and a radio transistor in the other.” (The implication being radio delivered instructions, and then men attacked with machetes.) Such conceptualizations suggest a strong causal link between radio broadcasts and genocidal violence.

The radio station was called RTLM, and actually had a handful of broadcasters (2 or 3?), but was quite small. To me, they are still just random guys in the same way that Sean Hannity is just a random guy, or Alex Jones. Although now I read that they had direct connections with the organizers of the genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9vision_Lib...

I didn't mean to imply that the radio broadcasts solely caused the genocide, but more-so that they played a critical role in exacerbating civilian participation in it, that enabling that participation it in a triggering way. I would also argue that the radio broadcasts played a role in galvanizing and normalizing hatred and motivation in the more organized militia and military participants.

Here is a popular empirical study which attempts to "quantify" the effect of RTLM:

https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/cid/...

But I actually like this article the best:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13698249.2018.15...

From the conclusion:

> The findings herein do not, of course, mean that the RTLM broadcasts had no effect on the genocide. Indeed, there is good reason to think that they had some effect on specific instances of killing, given that there is evidence that the broadcasts were used explicitly to coordinate the actions of some of the genocidaires (Kirschke 1996, Des Forges 1999). In addition, because, as Straus (2015) notes, elites do not need large-scale popular participation for genocide to take place but rather only need ‘popular compliance – they need citizens not to mobilise to resist violence’ (66), it is certainly plausible that exposure to anti-Tutsi propaganda might have made implementation of the genocide easier, such as by reminding listeners of the founding, exclusionary ideology of the country (Straus 2015), by causing civilians to internalise norms that legitimised the killing (Smeulers and Hoex 2010), or by spurring the adoption of oppositional identities (Fearon and Laitin 2000, Mamdani 2001, Kalyvas and Kocher 2007; Balcells and Steele 2016).

My fear still stands, that mob "hashtag" violence could pop up any time now, that it could spill out in a way that would be hard to contain. Arguably, it already has and does. I don't blame media as a cause, but it certainly is a conduit.

The trauma of this incident still haunts me:

https://kstp.com/news/four-men-charged-minneapolis-fourth-pr...

People very dear to me were at that protest, and I was out of town. I heard about it on Twitter and was very afraid that someone close to me could have been shot.

> If anything, it's people on the ground, in real life, living together, that would innoculate them against people on the radio or on the web telling them how other people are and what they will do if not attacked first. FWIW, the internet seems less diverse in spirit than it was, we used to be small groups of totally random people who had to get along and get to know each other, because we couldn't just block everyone or drive them off.

I absolutely agree with you in all of this, especially the part about people living together in real life. Self-segregation is a dangerous condition, especially when it is driven by inequality, fear, misunderstanding and hate. Too many of us passively accept, even foster, segregated lives without realizing the powder kegs we unwittingly charge.

And what I meant by "relatively diverse" is that the internet's public forums are way more dynamic than a small number of radio stations and newspapers, which were the primary media channels in Rwanda. Of course it cannot and must not be taken for granted that the internet will always be this way.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#144
How does everyone have so much trouble with Facebook and Twitter? I have both and have used both for years and I know that both require you to pick what you want to look at. I exhaust my Twitter feed in seconds and then have nothing to look at.

Both my FB feed and my Twitter feed are more heartwarming, adorable, funny, or touching than angry or whatever. Maybe all of this is just a reflection of who you guys are.

And I'm no stranger to controversy. Ban the bomb, no war, I've been there. Where I haven't been is Twitter/FB flamewars. And you know how? I unfollow as soon as I don't like. It's not the end of the world.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#145
post #16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there are localized social networks in countries where Facebook is blocked or just unpopular. WeChat in China, VKontakte in Russia. I'm not sure that's any better? What does localized even mean anymore, and who should decide whether someone is sufficiently "local" to qualify as a moderator?

Devolving moderation on national level (as opposed to centralized global) would be a start, but also self selecting groups. If you choose to be in a Singaporean page, group, forum, etc., you abide by their localization.

But what does that mean for a global group? Seriously?

For example: I help run a large art group on facebook. (Large = 76,975 members). While the breakdown of our group shows the largest percentage of folks in the group are from the US (20k), lots of folks are from India (15k).. and the rest are from elsewhere in the world. We list ourselves as global. The unpaid admins and moderators are from different countries and times zones. We use Translate functions at times.

What localisation do we have? Do we have a choice? If one admin is in Norway, can we use a Norwegian model of nudity censorship instead of the more restrictive American or Indian or Facebook models of "acceptable" nudity? Can you list locally with one admin even if your demographics do not fit? Do large countries always have the advantage? If demographics change, does the censorship style?

These are all issues with "local" or national level censorship, and I dont' think there is an easy answer.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#146
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Here, Facebook is making a good-faith effort to censor, we can see how difficult a time they are having writing rules for it, and Facebook is being criticized for it. There is no good way to do prior restraint. Read Justice Brandeis' concurring decision in Whitney vs. California. [1] He wrote the classic decision on this subject, and I can't improve on that. "Those who won our independence believed that the fina…

> “Immediate serious violence". That's the US standard for prior restraint. No, it's the US standard for applying the coercive power of government to prior restraint. The US standard for private actors applying prior restraint to their own platforms is “do what you will, so long as you apply any prior restraint the government has dictated based on immediate serious violence.” > That's what Facebook, as a US company,…

This reaction is so stereotypical, so ubiquitous that I wonder people bother to type it out: why not link https://xkcd.com/1357/ and save keystrokes?

This reaction is also false.

Facebook is part of the state!

Why? Organisations like FB organise large-scale information flow, in particular regarding controversial political issues. The majority of citizens receive the information regarding political decisions (e.g. who should be president) filtered and structured via FB. Hence organisations like Facebook are currently part of the the state! They are public infrastructure, and should be subject to democratic control.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So-called hate speech doesn’t cause harm other than to feelings. It’s constitutionally protected in the US, and Facebook is going down the wrong path trying to eliminate it.

It's constitutionally protected from the government infringing upon it. As Facebook is not the government, they are perfectly free to limit speech in any way they choose.

The article can be read as stating that "[Facebook is an] Unseen Branch of Government"

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#148
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words can not be violent. If you think one person being offended means speakers must be silenced, then you're on a dangerous pathway to fascism.

If I were to post here linking your legal name and identifying information and residence to this post and issuing a call to have you disemployed and harassed at home; evicted if possible and subjected to a general boycott covering everything from sex to food. You would object strenuously. Yet I would only be engaging in "free speech".

The thing that gets me about this argument is that, not only is this not a hypothetical scenario, there's a rather large overlap between the people who've been using these tactics to shut people up and the people demanding that sites like Facebook clamp down on "harmful" speech. They're like two parallel tactics in the same war to silence undesirable views. If we give in to the demands for sites like Facebook to eradicate harmful speech, we'll still have the same campaigns to fire and harass people, they just won't be able to complain about it because the social media websites will be under the exact same pressure to shut them up as their employers.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Check out what happened in Rwanda. This one random guy was going on the radio and spewing hate and lies, encouraging people to pick up machetes and kill their neighbors and family members based on this nuanced, arbitrary colonial racial construct. > It went viral. What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide > The genocide was planned by members of the core Hutu political elite, many of whom occupied positi…

Thank you for pushing back, I appreciate that. I see now that I presented an overly simplistic narrative, which I took from a documentary long ago when I was young. > Who was this random guy? Who told you this story, or where do you have it from? How did this claim go viral, that one random guy on Rwanda ranted on the radio, and it ended in genocide? I picked this up from a documentary I saw years ago.. It was probab…

No, thank you for clearing that up so thoroughly.

> I didn't mean to imply that the radio broadcasts solely caused the genocide, but more-so that they played a critical role in exacerbating civilian participation in it

But you can see how you put it, with that "It went viral." on its own line even, read as implying that random guy single-handedly caused it all, right?

I was kicked from Facebook after 9 years of using it, with many RL friends and classmates, always under my real name, with photos, with photos I was tagged in; after a time during which I corrected hardliners in both Palestine and Israel, and for my troubles got called a supporter of the other side by each, (though I had FB friendship extended to me by two awesome people, a Jewish author and an Israeli journalist, for bitching so much in comments on Haaretz articles), I suddenly had my acount suspended and was asked to provide ID.

Mind you, not one of my posts ever had violated any guidelines. No posts or comments were reported, but simply me as a person. And of course, I did not get to face my accusers, either. Those "user report" mechanisms also enable mobs, and shutting someone up may not be violence, but it is the objective of violence, the end to which violence is just one of several means. Achieving it without violence doesn't make it okay, at all. I have no illusions that FB has any info that would be in my ID anyway, it's not a privacy thing, it's just a matter of principle to me. I won't play along with that, so "I got kicked off Facebook", and I'm naturally wary of whoever might get banned under the guise of "hate speech getting banned".

That is, I don't just accept that at face value, not in a world where there is STILL ElsaGate content on YouTube, 1 year after YouTube claimed it's gonna fix that ASAP, which in turn was after years of being begged to do anything. In a world where I run the risk to get mocked with "think of the children!" for mentioning that, while it's considered normal to think of adults who seek out words they don't like and get offended.

So I'd want every single case of someone getting banned for hate speech or whatever to be documented and verifiable, that would be a start. I'm not going to take the word of the people in charge, nor the word of the people who think everything must be in order, because they themselves haven't been on the wrong end of it yet. And I got lucky to get kicked over 2 years ago and not sometime in the future, because already I see people saying about the Patreon stuff, "oh, some might be innocent, but most are really nasty". To me, that is in spirit more aligned with radio broadcasts villifying people, than useful a tool against it. It's a weapon, not a tool at all.

This dehumanizing, this "throw them out, I don't care where they end up, just out of sight, out of mind", also spills over into physical violence. How could it not? Some examples here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbqqefsfC14

They're not fighting evil. They're being evil. They're using evil that others did, to do the evil they want to do. The actions matter, not the words. Even more, in part it's what people don't do, not just what they do. Everybody can get angry sometimes, but not everybody can laugh at themselves, or feel compassion with others.

Either we support "due process" (I put it in quotes because I'm not thinking of a specific process as much as one that applies to all), or our grievances lose their foundation. That is, if we don't think the same principles and rules should apply to all, on what basis could we possibly criticize someone for saying a certain race shouldn't vote, or anything like that?

I'm from Germany, and usually my part in discussions about free speech is being an asshole for thinking it's perfectly fine that we can't walk around glorifying Nazism. Facebook had so many horrid groups and comments spouting lies to incite hate and violence even 2.5 years ago, I don't even want to know how bad it's gotten since. So while I'm for, uhhh, "Facebook being allowed" to ban people or groups, I'm concerned with intransparent processes and double standards, and the normalization of treating speech like a luxury, that is granted or withdrawn by an unnaccountable group.

Re: Facebook’s Secret Rulebook for Global Political Speech

#150

How does everyone have so much trouble with Facebook and Twitter? I have both and have used both for years and I know that both require you to pick what you want to look at. I exhaust my Twitter feed in seconds and then have nothing to look at. Both my FB feed and my Twitter feed are more heartwarming, adorable, funny, or touching than angry or whatever. Maybe all of this is just a reflection of who you guys are. And…

Sounds like you just wanted to show us how great you are, even though it’s been demonstrated how these platforms do a lot of psychological tricks to hook you into flames and the like.
Post reply on HN