How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage • Hacker News Board

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#141

Post by krapp » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #113

purplethinking wrote: post #16

I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication? By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.

I think it is fair to criticize unedited internet communication in general, as we have just recently learned that this form of communication did not result in the improvement of public discourse that everyone might have hoped. Facebook just happens to be the largest platform offering that. I don't think it is fair to consider large-scale censorship as the only other alternative. Having some kind of neutral editorial…

To be fair, 'unedited internet communication in general' shouldn't be expected to improve public discourse any more than telephone calls or emails or any other form of uncensored expression.

If the internet is meant to be a platform on which people can express themselves freely (and I believe it is) then unsubstantiated and hateful opinions are a given, not a sign that the internet has failed, but that it's succeeded.

What failed is the naive, idealist expectation that the internet would raise the level of intellectual and cultural awareness of the planet, but I don't think many people really believed in that to begin with.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#142

Post by stef25 » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #129

stef25 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the protesters seeing this video will know that surrendering to the police will probably get their arms and feet broken The ones getting their limbs smashed weren't protesting, they had destroyed and broken in to property with the probable intent of causing more damage. All of this in a setting where police is massively outnumbered while being pelted with 10 pound rocks, bottles, fire crackers and tear gas. Giving…

> Giving someone a beating to incapacitate them (no time for arrest & paperwork) is fair game in my eyes. This is a very wrong view to hold, imho. Modern political concepts like the German Rechtsstaat or the English "Rule of law" depend on the police not doing what they're seen doing in videos like this one. If the general populace feels (or even starts to feel) that the police and the powers that be play by no rules…

Let's hope the general populace can see the difference between peaceful protestors and people just wanting violence and destruction.

Macron's body guard getting filmed (out of context) beating a protestor led to him being arrested, suspended and then demoted and profuse apologies from France's head of state.

So I think police is still being held accountable the way they should.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#143

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

snaky wrote: post #137

beginningguava wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history that's what they want. The media and many government officials have been implying that the citizens are simply too stupid to be trusted with filtering their information so the glorious government must restrict what they're allowed to see. At what point will they decide the common man is simply too dumb to vote and get rid of democracy as well?…

> the common man is simply too dumb to vote This is foundation of American democracy actually. In the early history of the U.S., most states allowed only male adult property owners to vote (about 6% of the population).

And even then, there's an additional escape hatch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#144

Post by gaius » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #44

amelius wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's starting to feel like a coordinated smear campaign, even if all of it is accurate. I don't get it. If it's all accurate then what is the problem exactly? That all the anger is directed at FB? They are the largest social media company, and in the good times I have never heard them say "but other social media companies deserve some love too". Running a business is not supposed to be easy.

> I don't get it. If it's all accurate then what is the problem exactly? Selective reporting is a huge problem. You can distort almost any topic by selectively reporting only truthful things.

You can distort almost any topic by selectively reporting only truthful thing

You mean like, determining what users see on their timelines?

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#145

Post by ulrikrasmussen » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

snaky wrote: post #126

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is fair to criticize unedited internet communication in general, as we have just recently learned that this form of communication did not result in the improvement of public discourse that everyone might have hoped. Facebook just happens to be the largest platform offering that. I don't think it is fair to consider large-scale censorship as the only other alternative. Having some kind of neutral editorial…

> I think it is fair to criticize unedited internet communication in general, as we have just recently learned that this form of communication did not result in the improvement of public discourse It depends on how exactly you define 'improvement'. Millions of people, speaking freely to each other, finding new friends sharing common interests would disagree with you.

It is not universally bad, of course. The question is if the bad consequences outweigh the good ones.

The improvement I was talking about was the hope that the increased access to online communication would engage more people in constructive public discourse, include the voices of minorities and bring people with different backgrounds to a greater understanding of each other. Platforms like Facebook have utterly failed at that.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#146

Post by matt4077 » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #53

purplethinking wrote: post #16

I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication? By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.

It’s odd because they pick and choose which “violence” is right and wrong. When Arab spring (in the end a very destabilizing movement) was facilitated by FB and Twitter it was great. When it facilitates caravan protests it’s great. When it facilitates anti-tax movements that threaten viability of an unpopular (vis a vis locals) but popular internationally (ie elites) then it’s seen as facilitating “bad” protests. Obv…

Who is “they”? Your little anti-media ciclejerk here seems to target “the media”. But you can’t all be so dense as to not notice that this is just some guy on medium.com, right?

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#147

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:41 PM UTC

XCabbage wrote: post #139

pjc50 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An example of the sort of thing I mean: https://www.ft.com/content/333fe6bc-c1ea-11e6-81c2-f57d90f67... (in this case Macedonians, not Russians, but where did the money come from?)

Paywalled.

Similar story from Wired? https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-macedonia-fake-news/

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#148

Post by jklinger410 » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #83

jklinger410 wrote: post #61

Can someone explain the nuances of these protests? Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't carbon taxes progressive and environmentally responsible?

> Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Yes, the French routing over taxes is not historically uncommon, and the French aren't unified ideologically, and particularly aren't uniformly left-wing. And, as I understand, it's not as simple as just carbon taxes, either.

I understand the french-are-liberal trope, but, as an American, I view countries like Canada, France, and Germany as way farther left than the US. Economically, and culturally.

We see much less representation of their conservatives here. Pardon me for being slightly ignorant on this, and thank you for the reminder.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#149

Post by ahje » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

vtesucks wrote: post #136

ahje wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic idea is that the will of the people may change at a whim, and that we therefore need safeguards to protect liberal parlamentarism and the basic order of society from changes that would otherwise be disruptive. This obviously protects the so-called elites from angry mobs, which is the main argument against this system, but it also make sure that our economies don't collapse due to various governments doing t…

Thanks, fair point. But then again that's democracy right? And riots aren't your weekend party- people are on streets because they are fed up of something.

Definitely. On the other hand, would this have been prevented if the desiscion to increase carbon taxes was taken through a referendum? I suspect many of the people that are currently rioting would do so even if the no-side had lost a referendum, especially if they are stuck in filter bubbles reinforcing the idea that everyone around them share their opinions.

That's also the point of the article, but the author blames it all on Facebook not preventing populist bubbles, when the main issue is that the entire industry has a problem with bubbles.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#150

Post by gruez » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

XCabbage wrote: post #131

pjc50 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a key part of this is misrepresentation: Russians saying things about politics as themselves would be one thing, but Russians pretending to be Americans en masse with thousands of fake accounts and promoting obviously false rumours and driven by audience-targeting ad technology starts to become a problem. (This is not an argument against anonymity; I don't need to know where these accounts really live. I do need…

> Russians pretending to be Americans While I don't claim to have researched this issue in depth and it's worth taking this with a pinch of salt, I'm yet to see any evidence of this, nor has it been a part of most of the leftist reporting I've seen. The only instance I've heard of where a specific Twitter account has been accused of being a Russian misrepresenting their nationality was ian56789, and that accusation w…

What counts as "misrepresenting their nationality"? I'm sure russian bots aren't going around saying "I, John Smith, an American citizen, think that Hiliary is bad". It's probably going to be some user named @johnsmith2009 saying "Hilary is bad".