Racism! Stong word, but this is what the Swedish cashless society is: indirect racism. Those at the margins of society are excluded from participating in society because they don't have Swedish bank accounts or Swedish credit cards. Many clubs and pubs require that to enter. Indirectly, this means that non-Swedish (non-white) people don't get into the club. Not direct racism, but indirect (the outcome is the same, no white people allowed entry, or to participate in society).
Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
141–150 of 628 posts
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bitcoin is neither anonymous nor untraceable. Replacing cash with bitcoin would be a nightmare.
Thankfully it's not possible thanks to the wait time :-)
There is no wait time when using a Bitcoin Lightning transaction: http://lightning.network/
There is no wait time when recipients accept 0-conf transactions (which is always the case in a brick and mortar store, because 99% of the time it's safe enough – there is even smart tools that verify the transaction is sufficiently broadcasted to reduce risk).
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#143I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…
That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals. In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet. You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use…
In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet.
Disney does that at Disneyland and Disney World in America: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/plan/my-disney-experience/...
You can also use it to unlock you hotel room and to link to those photographs that are taken of you when you're on the rides.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Untraceable anonymous transactions is the minimal requirement for it not to be harmful and dystopian.
I agree, but unfortunately I don't believe a society being run by humans would ever implement that. The leaders will not tolerate that kind of loss of control.
> I agree, but unfortunately I don't believe a society being run by humans would ever implement that
This was already implemented for hundreds of years. It is called "paying with cash".
Sure, there are some minor edge cases, like dollar serial numbers that are sometimes tracked to catch bank robbers or whatever, but cash is mostly anonymous and untraceable.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#145> Swedish legislation makes it possible for retailers, restaurants and other companies to refuse to accept cash, for instance by putting up a sign at the entrance or by the till. Yes. It started as a curiosity and now this signs are everywhere. > By connecting a bank account in any bank with a mobile phone number, Swish has become a popular way to share a restaurant bill Yes. And to gather money for a friend's birthd…
"The oldest part of the population have a hard time adapting to this situation"
Also immigrants, non-Swedes and vulnerable people in society have a hard time. But the white people find the cashless society works well for them I suppose.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals. In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet. You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use…
The best payment experience I’ve had is cash. I pay for what I need and when I leave the festival I can still use my “credits” hassle free anywhere I like.
Most of the cashless festivals return your unused "credits" pretty quickly after the festival.
The real problem comes when the system breaks down- which I've seen happen at plenty of festivals. At that point if cash isn't an option then commerce simply stops- screwing both vendor and customer alike.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#147I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…
Aren't you asking a bit too much info for a simple SEPA transfer ? The IBAN should be all you really need, the rest are nice to have.
Nice to have a tendency to escalate. Certain things have a tendency to creep along the nice-to-have-|-must-have continuum. IMO, digital money generally does.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree, but the main point of an e-krona is exactly to try and reduce that risk. One of the proposed goals is to have non-traceable transactions. Seems unrealistic to me but that would be the holy grail.
We have known how to do untraceable* transactions [0] since 1982. There has now been thirty years of cryptographic research building on these results. The reason it hasn't happened is not because we can't do it but because governments resist the additional privacy protections. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash * - For some values of untracable. The privacy provided by ecash is in theory less than cash provides…
We have known how to do untraceable transactions [0] since 1982.*
We have known how to do untraceable transactions since 3,000 BC.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then a cashless society requires permission from multiple entities- the government, the financial providers, and the entity you want to transact with. Not at all like cash, which just requires the entity to accept it as legal tender.
Unless the entity you're transacting with is also interested in operating in a completely cash-based economy, they will need to deposit your cash with a private bank and enter into the electronic money market. They will then worry about the source of your money by profiling you in case the risk accrues to them. Stores already do this if you pay for something with a large amount of cash and stand out as a target. That…
You are talking about an edge case which just isn't true.
It is entirely possible to live your entire life, paying with only cash, in the United States. The hardest part would likely be paying rent, but even that isn't unheard up to pay with using cash.
Society is not cashless. The edge cases you are talking about rarely ever come up. If it is possible to only pay with cash, then the last hop is all that matters for you as an individual.
Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia
#150I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…
> Utopia my ass It actually IS a Utopia, by Thomas More's original definition; a society that appears idyllic and perfectly organised on the surface, but is only maintained in that state by everyone doing what they're supposed to do. And that is achieved by enforcing total compliance through surveillance and coercion. The point of the book is that the reader really wouldn't want to live in Utopia once he understands…
I fail to see how Sweden in this case is enforcing the cashless trends through surveillance or coercion.