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Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

nytimes.com

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Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#141

Post by sgustard »

TylerE wrote: post #98
mygo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been seeing cyclist blow through stop signs for 30 years. One reason cyclists don’t stop at stop signs is because it’s the biggest energy drain to have to come to a full stop, killing all momentum, and then pick up speed again from zero. If a cyclist approaching a stop sign sees that there is no traffic, and it’s not even a busy street, then that cyclist will likely just keep going. I’m not saying whether that…

Well, why can't a car do the same thing? Replace all the stop signs with yield signs.

Do you see any scenario in which a 4-way yield would be more dangerous than a 4-way stop?

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#142

Post by robotkdick »

porphyrogene wrote: post #110
Matthias247 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just ride in amongst trucks travelling 40mph when a bike lane abruptly ends No, they are not weird! They do it because that's the only way to ride a bike in most of todays cities. Weird are general the car drivers who get upset every time they see a bike, and can't wait to overtake them with far less than a minimal safety distance.

I think he was speaking from what he perceives as the perspective of civic decision-makers, e.g. "Cyclists are weird, we don't need to think about the efficacy of bike travel in our city." Otherwise his comment doesn't really make sense. This whole thing reminds me of the Portlandia take on this issue. Everyone just hates the other group because they are serving their own interests. No, "general car drivers" are not…

I completely agree. In this case, there are at least four groups: automobile driver, motorcyclist, bicyclist, and pedestrian. We are nearly all biased, but when we exchange roles, I'd argue that most of us (including myself) will point the finger at the other group because it's so much easier to see the faulty behavior from an outsider perspective.

That's human nature, and it's exactly what's happening in politics at large. People from cities don't understand people from rural areas and vice versa. We think we're all so far apart, but in reality, our views are all grouped really close together (they're all human views). This is why we face major challenges solving larger problems, like global warming or plastic in the ocean, because it's easier to counter-attack than to do the work to change our own behaviors despite the faults we see around us.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#144

Post by telchar »

ryanmercer wrote: post #104
samstave wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. People who don't bike don't understand. Imagine having to effectively park you car every single time a stop was legally required. All moving vehicles should be operated safely, but obeying a stop sign, just because its a stop sign isnt always safe, or efficient. @drRogers below me... To anyone bitching about stop signs, they should be bitching about the lack of roundabouts. There are myriad ways to design in…

>To anyone bitching about stop signs, they should be bitching about the lack of roundabouts. Uh. Roundabouts cost orders of magnitude more than stop signs and eat up several times as much space as a standard intersection. https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/innovative/roundabo... >The average construction cost of roundabouts is estimated at approximately $250,000[2]. Roundabouts discussed in this report ranged i…

That's not a good comparison, you're neglecting the cost of actually building the non-roundabout intersection and just looking at the cost of the signs. Consider the cost to build each from scratch.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#145

Post by robotkdick »

samcheng wrote: post #36
abrichr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cyclists are weird ... e-scooters are for "normal people" Could you please elaborate on this? Why do you think so (or why do you think that is a widely held belief)? If anything I would have thought that it was the opposite.

This was clearly satire, but the idea is that only a certain subset of people are active enough to ride a bike. If e-scooters take off, that's a new/larger group of people traveling at 15mph. Infrastructure that was marginal for the small cohort of bicyclists will become obviously inadequate as people riding e-scooters, e-bikes, motor skateboards, etc. join them. As a bicyclist who wants more and safer bike lanes, I…

Dutch people, evidently, are nearly all fit for bicycling. That's a system that would be useful to learn from.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#146

Post by Navarr »

gamblor956 wrote: post #114
samstave wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. People who don't bike don't understand. Imagine having to effectively park you car every single time a stop was legally required. All moving vehicles should be operated safely, but obeying a stop sign, just because its a stop sign isnt always safe, or efficient. @drRogers below me... To anyone bitching about stop signs, they should be bitching about the lack of roundabouts. There are myriad ways to design in…

Imagine having to effectively park you car every single time a stop was legally required. Cars do come to a complete stop every time they reach a stop sign or red light. Those that don't tend to get very expensive tickets. Pedestrians also stop at intersections, usually, and those that don't tend to get tickets. It's just cyclists who seem to think that they're above the law. Guess what? They chose an inefficient for…

I have seen a lot of cars not come to a full and complete stop at stop signs if there's no traffic

I don't see why it should be any different for cyclists.

This argument, of course, does not apply to people going full-speed without yielding through a stop sign or traffic light

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#147

Post by throwaway427 »

komali2 wrote: post #30
notatoad wrote: post #22

>They belong in the bike lane (which should exist in the first place) the problem is the existence of bike lanes. If public officials start saying "scooters belong in the bike lane", then they have to confront the fact that their cities have no cohesive network of bike lanes that can actually support a real journey. This has been acceptable up until now, because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just r…

> because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just ride in amongst trucks travelling 40mph. This is unsustainable. It's caused blowback from cyclists. "Fine, you want me to play in traffic, I'm going to start doing some dumb shit." I say this as a cyclist, I'm doing only 5 miles round trip but I do it every day. I see people blow red lights, weaving in and out of traffic, hopping onto the sidewalk, blast…

You say scorned, I say entitled.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#148

Post by ghaff »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #51
floatrock wrote: post #29

What you're seeing is car companies trying to transition to "mobility" companies -- the difference being the former is a manufacturing company with 3% margins and the latter being a services company with much fatter margins. Autonomous car fleets are the main "mobility services" prize of course -- all the major OEMs have autonomous research labs -- but you're seeing more interest in scooters and bikes (there was a he…

No, I don't think this is a transition. What we're likely seeing is M&A people caught up in the hype and trends. In some ways, it's worth spending some amount as a hedge against something happening, but I don't believe these scooters will represent any meaningful change ... personally I think they are kind of a fad. The logistics, cost, narrow use cases of all of it just don't work out well enough. Truly - what % of…

If nothing else--and I tend to agree they're a fad--the question of where you ride them seems as if it will be the ultimate stumbling block. Even if one stipulates for purposes of argument that they're OK to ride on sidewalks if you're careful about it and the sidewalks aren't too crowded, it seems hard to argue that this scales up to widespread usage. At the same time, it's fairly clear to me that these won't work for most people if they need to ride them in the road or even a non-separated bike lane.

Segways largely failed for a number of reasons but infrastructure was a big one. A lot of people probably forget this but they spent a lot of time and money lobbying cities to let them ride on sidewalks (and were mostly unsuccessful in this regard).

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#149

Post by imgabe »

sgustard wrote: post #137
wafflesraccoon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal anecdote, cyclists blow through stop signs because the infrastructure isn't built for bicycles. Having to come to a stop and then start up on a bicycle is the hardest part and cyclists hate it. Source: Commuting to work on a bicycle for years.

I agree it's convenient for the biker, but it's confusing for cars. As a driver making a 4-way stop I see a biker approaching from the side. I know he's planning to roll through the intersection. I can either wait for him (yielding my right of way) or take my turn (forcing him to make an unplanned stop). Meanwhile that indecision further disrupts the flow of traffic.

If it's your turn to go, go. Most likely the cyclist will slow enough for you to get through the intersection without having to make a full stop themselves. They know it's your turn to go and are expecting you to go. It only creates further confusion if you don't follow the rules that everyone knows.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#150

Post by robotkdick »

notatoad wrote: post #35
abrichr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cyclists are weird ... e-scooters are for "normal people" Could you please elaborate on this? Why do you think so (or why do you think that is a widely held belief)? If anything I would have thought that it was the opposite.

It's really just my perception as a cyclist - how i'm treated on the road, and how bike lanes are addressed in my community.

Or ignored ;)

A few years ago, I rode my bike around Lake Michigan and blew out a wheel while in the upper peninsula. While sitting and waiting for the replacement, mostly at a bar, one of the truck driver regulars told me when he sees a bike rider, he swerves to hit them. That actually happens in some places. I've experienced it first hand.

While at a stoplight, I was also told by a driver in LA that I should be careful riding my motorcycle or someone might hit me. I asked him if he was planning on hitting me, and he said maybe. Traffic in general is a dangerous place to be, but when you combine a lack of education or intelligence or negligence, it is the most dangerous part of our lives.

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