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CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

money.cnn.com

141–150 of 155 posts

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#141
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their last big success? It was launched 10 years ago, last year was the first time the XBox division made a profit and it's still years and years away from recouping the investment made in it. If that's a success I really don't want to see one of their failures.

I'm not familiar with the detailed financials, but the Xbox has at least captured a substantial market share, which is more than I can say for any of their subsequent major pushes into new market segments. I'm actually surprised if the xbox hasn't been profitable. It can't have been that costly to develop (get a fancy graphics chip and stick it in a box), they've sold a helluva lot of them, and they only update it on…

The 360 has recently started making a profit, why? Because they released the 360 making a loss, and dropped the price rather quickly. They then dropped the price even more. And even more.

IIRC they've always made money off of the special edition elite consoles, they've been making a profit off of the elite as a whole for a while now, however these represent a small amount of their sales compared to the big sales of the arcade consoles they had.

PS3 made huge losses to try to stay competitive with 360, and never really dropped much in price and lost huge market share because of it.

However, both have been ridiculous profit makers for their parent companies as the entire devision makes wheelbarrow loads of cash from selling games for ridiculous prices (again something Sony fucked up with by getting greedy in the beginning, although Xbox eventually followed).

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#142
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office" I would think that the real problem is Microsoft's unwillingness to become something completely new, something other than Windows and Office. Apple was a computer company, then it became a cell phone company, a music company, a lot of other things. Microsoft now sort of reminds me of Sun circa 1999: yes, they…

"I would think that the real problem is Microsoft's unwillingness to become something completely new, something other than Windows and Office." Inability, perhaps. Unwillingness? You're out of your mind. Microsoft has had their fingers in smartphones, music players, search engines, touch computing, web mail, [you name it] for YEARS. And they are not just dabbling... they have poured billions into these areas, trying…

Microsoft is rich enough to be able to pour billions of dollars and millions of engineer-hours into a project without seriously committing to it (Kin).

Throwing crap against a wall and hoping it sticks, even if you spend billions, isn't innovation, that's flailing.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#143

As one of the largest software developers on the planet, MS has access to more cool stuff than anyone can imagine. With all that cash, I'm sure it comes across they're radar all the time -- and they do make purchases and investments. The problem is the minute they implement new technology it gets some committee-driven marketing name that's so completely disconnected from what it does that it takes million$ to explain…

IIS: internet information Services. It IS services for internet information.

COM: component object model. It IS an object model for components.

Sharepoint: a shared point for sharing information.

BizTalk: communication between enterprise (buisness) software.

Doesn't seem like disconnected marketing names to me. Zune, Bing, Silverlight, yeah point taken. Still not much more disconnected than "iPod", "yahoo" or "flash".

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#144
post #100

This article is overblown at best. Microsoft's core operating system and office suites remain absolutely dominant even if competitors are rising. While Nintendo Wii certainly moves more units than the xbox, the xbox remains a successful competitive system with interesting innovations that largely focused on a different segment than the Wii did. While Microsoft is way behind in the phone segment, it is a bit premature…

This article is overblown at best. Microsoft's core operating system and office suites remain absolutely dominant even if competitors are rising. Yes but are these business licenses or consumer sales? Go to any college campus and see how many Windows laptops you see students using. Microsoft sales are going to businesses (who are entrenched in MS solutions) and people who "have always used Windows" (i.e. older folks…

Its both business and consumer sales. Around 90% of the market share.

The large amounts of apple machines in colleges is probably more an indication of students wanting to be fashionably correct, than it is microsofts brand being tarnished in the general population.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#145
post #3

I firmly believe that most of Microsoft's failings in the consumer market come from their fear of the World Wide Web. Microsoft does everything they can to hide their users from the real power of the web, since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office. Their logic in locking users to Windows-based experiences is old, tired, and not going to work anymore. Peo…

"since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office" I would think that the real problem is Microsoft's unwillingness to become something completely new, something other than Windows and Office. Apple was a computer company, then it became a cell phone company, a music company, a lot of other things. Microsoft now sort of reminds me of Sun circa 1999: yes, they…

Maybe then Oracle will buy Microsoft in 2020 for their legacy integration.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#146
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the article misses is that Microsoft has an asset that it's competitors often don't: trust. What technical person trusts Microsoft? I don't mean to be flippant, but the reputation they have among technical people that I know is that their stuff is poorly designed, insecure, and buggy. Disclaimer: I got fed up with their poorly designed and buggy software in the late 90s, and have had Linux as my primary developm…

XP, for example, has some level of support into 2014, so from a business perspective one can trust that they'll provide support for quite some time, that is something you won't get from Apple. How this has any bearing on a discussion of Microsoft's consumer relevance I am not sure.

I've been thinking about that lately. Consider the companies that the article compares them to in the consumer market: Google, Facebook, and Apple.

Google and Facebook identify individuals, track personal details of their lives to a degree beyond what most individuals can imagine, and then generate revenue by using those personal details. Apple on the other hand, as a hardware company generates revenue through planned obsolescence (and Apple is moving more and more toward consumer data collection as a major source of revenue).

For each of them one might argue that there is a misalignment between the revenue model and important long term interests of consumer. The problem for consumer oriented companies is that the easiest source of increased profits is simply raising the price of your products (reduced operating expenses are bounded by zero, increasing market share in mature markets is expensive, and creating new markets is very high risk).

Conversely, to a large degree, Microsoft makes products and provide services which contribute to their business customer's bottom line. This puts them in an entirely different position in relation to the consumer market, because their sales increase as with the economic expansion of their customers (a unique advantage of B2B sales over consumer sales).

Unlike Chrome, Microsoft doesn't send every keystroke in the IE address bar back to a server to be analyzed with the intent of targeting their customer. When you register your copy of Office, you're not encouraged to list your children with their ages and to post pictures of them on the web. And you can load up your copy of Office 97 in a Win95 virtual machine on a new Windows 7 system. Their B2B revenue model requirement that Microsoft align its interests with the long term interests of its customers carries over to their consumer markets.

I see Microsoft in the unique position to differentiate itself as "the company which protects consumer privacy." The requirements are not all that difficult, some changes to Bing, a realignment of Internet Explorer toward user anonymity, and proper positioning of WinPhone7. What's more, all these are things which are in the interest of many of their B2B customers and none would have meaningful negative impact on Microsoft's bottom line.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also scared of phones. Check out their Phone 7 commercials. They appear to be catering to people who think people with phones are douchebags who walk around staring at their screen all day. I'm not sure how well this marketing strategy will work, because I am one of those douchebags, but it doesn't make me want to get one.

I haven't seen the commercials, but I did follow the launch event. One thing was said so often and was so... odd... I had to go back and write it down: "We've focused in on how real people want to use their phones when they're on the go -- we want you to get in, out, and back to life as fast as humanly possible." First of all, some of the animations on some of their apps have a bit of time to them and don't really fi…

In fact, Windows 7 had a whole series of commercials based around that concept: the "seven second demos" - http://barnes89.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/windows-7-seven-sec...

By all accounts, they were remarkably successful.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#148
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their last big success? It was launched 10 years ago, last year was the first time the XBox division made a profit and it's still years and years away from recouping the investment made in it. If that's a success I really don't want to see one of their failures.

I'm not familiar with the detailed financials, but the Xbox has at least captured a substantial market share, which is more than I can say for any of their subsequent major pushes into new market segments. I'm actually surprised if the xbox hasn't been profitable. It can't have been that costly to develop (get a fancy graphics chip and stick it in a box), they've sold a helluva lot of them, and they only update it on…

The XBox line over the decade has cost them a fortune.

Until relatively recently when manufacturing costs dropped Microsoft were selling the hardware at a significant loss which means that you have to sell a certain number of games just to break even. This isn't an uncommon model for consoles (the Wii was an exception being profitable as a console from day one) but it was pretty extreme for Microsoft who were basically making an aggressive play for market share and damn the expense.

Up to 2005 the XBox gaming division (including hardware and games sales) had lost $4 billion (http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/12/microsoft-management-softwa...) on a total investment of over $20 billion and it continued to lose money up to 2009 including a cost of $1 billion for replacing bricked XBox360's in 2007 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/05/xbox-360-warranty-extende...). All in all I'd estimate up to 2009 total losses up to or even in excess of $6 billion.

In 2009 it finally posted it's first profit - $165 million, though it's probably worth noting that as a percentage of the $6 billion it had lost to that point this is basically nothing.

They have a total installed user base of 41 million consoles (360s) world wide. This puts it slightly ahead of the PS3 (38 million) - though it should be noted that the PS3 launched a year later and is currently selling faster - but way behind the Wii (79 million) and the PS2 (over 140 million). It's likely that by the start of 2011 once Christmas is out of the way they'll be last place in terms of installed user base - not a great reward for all that money spent.

(If these numbers don't feel representative of what you see it's worth noting that the XBox is far stronger in the US than in Europe and Japan).

On the positive side Kinnect is apparently priced so that it will be profitable from day one, they do have a decent installed user base for new games sales and live subscriptions, and console production costs are now a lot lower than they were which means that the next three or four years (the likely remaining life of the console) will all be profitable, however it would seem unlikely that they'll be able to bring the total investment to break even for the life of the XBox range.

Maybe we have different definitions but for me that's not only not a success, but it's not far off being a disaster, particularly given that this isn't a tale of a couple of years of growth at the expense of profit, but a decade long tale.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#149
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the detailed financials, but the Xbox has at least captured a substantial market share, which is more than I can say for any of their subsequent major pushes into new market segments. I'm actually surprised if the xbox hasn't been profitable. It can't have been that costly to develop (get a fancy graphics chip and stick it in a box), they've sold a helluva lot of them, and they only update it on…

The 360 has recently started making a profit, why? Because they released the 360 making a loss, and dropped the price rather quickly. They then dropped the price even more. And even more. IIRC they've always made money off of the special edition elite consoles, they've been making a profit off of the elite as a whole for a while now, however these represent a small amount of their sales compared to the big sales of t…

> both have been ridiculous profit makers for their parent companies as the entire devision

Sorry, this is completely untrue for the XBox which has haemorrhaged cash for it's entire life as a division, not just on hardware sales. I've linked to the figures in my post above.

The PS3 is in a similar position - it moved into profit on the hardware sales earlier this year and total losses are estimated at around $3 billion to date. I can't find any figures on the whole division profitability (other than that it is profitable) to know how likely it is to recoup this, though there are statements that they do expect it to make money over it's full life (though I suspect it will be questionable how much for an investment of that size).

If you're wondering how this can be possible, the console subsidies at launch were of the order of $250 - $300 per console. That's a lot of money to make up off of game sales and live subscriptions (remember you're making it off the profit on each game - maybe $10 - $20, not the revenue of $50).

> PS3 made huge losses to try to stay competitive with 360, and never really dropped much in price and lost huge market share because of it.

In terms of global (not US) market share the PS3 will pass the XBox360 shortly which isn't great news for the 360 given that it launched a year earlier so had a head start. Given that Microsoft's sales figures are based on shipped to retailers and Sony's are on sold to consumer's it's possible that the PS3 is already in the hands of more people (rather than sat on shop shelves). In the US the figures are better (18 million vs. 12 million) which might explain why you think it's doing well but that picture isn't reflected in Japan (1 million vs. 5 million) or Europe.

But if you're wondering where the next generation of consoles are, these figures should make it clear - they're nowhere. Both companies need to eek out the life of the current consoles for financial reasons before looking at further significant investment.

Indeed it may be the case that the XBox360/PS3 generation of consoles will prove to be a one off in terms of the level of investment made given the difficulty in recouping it, and that future consoles will be based on smaller, cheaper increments in power and functionality.

Just to be clear, I'm not knocking MS for the sake of it (I actually really like the look of Kinnect and give them great credit for the innovation) but the economics of consoles aren't quite what some people seem to think they are.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not have both and see what the market decides? Kin was killed after six weeks, the market decided it was crap and only a couple were sold. Actually not so much that the Kin itself is bad, but carriers weren't enthusiastic enough, and Microsoft had marketing problems for a product that would battle WP7 6 months later.

you're right - it was killed after 6 weeks, but if you read the post-mortems/insider "scoops", it seems as if the Sidekick team wasn't allowed to make the product that they wanted to make. Features were getting pulled, changed, and strip-mined. You illustrate another problem - I don't know why MS would view it as "battling" WP7 6 months later: 1) 6 months is a LIFETIME for a phone. The Pre went from amazing, potentia…

Since I no longer work there I can say that the insider "scoop" was that main reason it was killed wasn't because Microsoft didn't allow the team to make the right product it was because the carriers interfered too much. The price point was completely wrong for the device that actually came out, but Verizon mandated the price regardless of what the actual target was. By the time everybody had gotten together no one knew what the target market or feature set was.
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