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United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

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Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#141

Post by lsaferite »

otterley wrote: post #94
Someone1234 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is the communication that you want to fly to a particular city by placing it in the destination field or by telling it to the ticket agent. By that logic even searching for tickets without purchasing them could be argued as "fraud." Since even putting something in the destination field is, according to your argument, a material representation of intent. None of this holds up. > I'm tired of arguing this to amate…

> By that logic even searching for tickets without purchasing them could be argued as "fraud." Since even putting something in the destination field is, according to your argument, a material representation of intent. If you search for tickets with no intent to purchase, it's plausibly an element of fraud, but it's not fraud. The additional elements (reliance and detriment) aren't met yet. Once the purchase is comple…

Out of curiosity, how do you see the element of detriment being argued? The passenger paid for a seat. The airline will absolutely assign that seat to a standby passenger when they miss boarding. Even if they don't, the seat is paid and less passengers means less feel burn. In both cases the airline makes out better. Is the argument going to be that the airline would have charged you more had you told them you only needed the first leg and by extension you robbed them of a chance to squeeze you harder?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#142

Post by otterley »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #137
otterley wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed. You're arguing that the mere act of buying is and of itself a representation, which is erroneous. It's not the purchase that is the representation. It is the communication that you want to fly to a particular city by placing it in the destination field or by telling it to the ticket agent. I'm tired of arguing this to amateurs; take it to a judge and try it yourself. I'll bring the popcorn.

> I'm tired of arguing this to amateurs; take it to a judge and try it yourself. I'll bring the popcorn. I've upvoted your comments in this thread because they're interesting, but you don't seem to be providing many references yourself so I'm not so sure why you are demanding references of others. (You did reference the "I agree" button below, but I don't see how that implies fraud in this case.) The question of frau…

The main point of contention here is what representation is being made when a customer tells United what origin and destination airport they want a ticket for, and whether the customer is intentionally misrepresenting their true intent by specifying a different destination airport than the one they actually intend to fly to. The fact that there’s even an argument here that no misrepresentation is being made, in light of my legal training and experience, I find pretty ludicrous.

It’s well known in contract law that the terms of a contract are determined objectively, as a hypothetical reasonable person would interpret them, not subjectively. Courts are understandably loath to try to divine the actual intent of the parties. See, e.g., Winograd v. Am. Broad. Co., 68 Cal. App. 4th 624, 632 (1998)).

I’m sure United can figure out what the price difference would have been under the particular circumstances of the case. If not, a court will make a determination of damages based on the facts provided by the parties.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#143

Post by otterley »

scrumper wrote: post #134
otterley wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) I agree that the Contract of Carriage is probably not the strongest basis by which United can demand recompense for abandoning a segment. Instead, I think they have a better chance of prevailing on a common-law fraud theory; see my explanation above.

Lay person here. Fraud is a criminal matter isn't it? Can United directly sue the passenger in civil court, or must they file a complaint with law enforcement and let a prosecutor handle it?

There’s civil fraud and criminal fraud, just like there’s wrongful death (civil) and murder (criminal). The difference is that there’s no imprisonment or other societal penalties for being liable under civil law - only money is involved.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#144

Post by otterley »

bfdm wrote: post #124
otterley wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I'm not citing anything is because there's nothing to cite. The (mis)representation in this case is crystal clear : "I want to fly to city B."

I don't want to fly anywhere. I want to buy a plane ticket with my name on it good for travel to B if I decide I want to do that later.

The law doesn’t care about your subjective intent; it will be interpreted objectively, according to the facts and circumstances that can be observed externally of the interaction between you and the carrier. This is a basic tenet of contract law.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#145

Post by otterley »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #139
otterley wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is fraud too, and is strictly prohibited by the Contract of Carriage.

True story : I booked two flights to Paris for my girlfriend and me. Before we left she found out that she has to return a day ealier. Instead of rebooking the flight (which would have been insanely expensive) she chose to return by train. Arriving at the airport for the return segment I proceeded to the gate and informed the airline employee that my girlfriend will not make the flight and that I would like to check…

Fraud is not always criminal - you can be liable civilly as well.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#146

Post by p49k »

otterley wrote: post #138
p49k wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The representation in question is "I want to buy a ticket that allows me to fly from City A to City B, stopping in City C."

The declaration of intent is made before the stopover city is revealed to the prospective buyer. You don’t get to specify a stopover city when you select your origin and destination; only after those are entered is the routing revealed to the customer.

I hope you can take a step back and see the absurdity of your argument. Using a search engine in one particular way doesn’t imply intent, nor does buying something that’s not exactly what you need.

Airlines can’t have it both ways: if they wanted to, they could make customers pony up a “trajectory abandonment” deposit, or force customers through an interstitial in which they explicitly agree to extra charges, or something similar, but they want the financial/competitive advantage that comes with the customer not having any worries (i.e. being clueless) about being charged for missing or not taking a connection.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#147

Post by otterley »

p49k wrote: post #146
otterley wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The declaration of intent is made before the stopover city is revealed to the prospective buyer. You don’t get to specify a stopover city when you select your origin and destination; only after those are entered is the routing revealed to the customer.

I hope you can take a step back and see the absurdity of your argument. Using a search engine in one particular way doesn’t imply intent, nor does buying something that’s not exactly what you need. Airlines can’t have it both ways: if they wanted to, they could make customers pony up a “trajectory abandonment” deposit, or force customers through an interstitial in which they explicitly agree to extra charges, or some…

We’re talking about a situation in which the customer already knows they want to go to city B. If they’re being truthful up front, city B is the destination they’ll be putting in the destination box when searching for tickets, and they will get a routing to that destination without any additional segments when they do so (assuming, of course, that the route is possible).

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#148

Post by kryogen1c »

p49k wrote: post #146
otterley wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The declaration of intent is made before the stopover city is revealed to the prospective buyer. You don’t get to specify a stopover city when you select your origin and destination; only after those are entered is the routing revealed to the customer.

I hope you can take a step back and see the absurdity of your argument. Using a search engine in one particular way doesn’t imply intent, nor does buying something that’s not exactly what you need. Airlines can’t have it both ways: if they wanted to, they could make customers pony up a “trajectory abandonment” deposit, or force customers through an interstitial in which they explicitly agree to extra charges, or some…

Your argument seems absurd to me. The price break exists because it's a good deal for airline and long distance flier. Abusing this system only ends in two ways: airlines punish short-stoppers, or raise prices on everyone.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#149

Post by brewdad »

foton1981 wrote: post #121
dragonwriter wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have a legal citation for this? As far as I am aware, no one has actually attempted to make a fraud claim on the grounds that mere purchase (and/or the statement of intent to purchase) a composite good or service was a representation by the buyer to the seller of intent to use every portion of the good or service so sold and had the case survive to a published decision on that question. But, you know, if you…

Damn. If this becomes legal precedent will I be forced to read every page of books I buy?

And you'd damn well use both items of your Buy One, Get One Free offer. No sharing. No only using half of the second item.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#150

Post by brewdad »

jki275 wrote: post #140
trelliscoded wrote: post #129

I never understood how they found out if a passenger was skipping one leg of a flight. If it's the same plane, just get off, and if it's not the same plane, just check in to the next flight and don't board. Is someone counting heads or something while I'm not looking?

The flights are nearly always separate planes, and even if they're not they do count heads on the plane and if you walk up, hand in your boarding pass, and then walk away they're going to note that down because now they have to go into the computer and verify whether you have bags onboard that they have to offload because you aren't taking the flight. There's no scenario where they don't know exactly who is sitting i…

>>There's no scenario where they don't know exactly who is sitting in what seat for every seat on every plane when it takes off, it's all just data in the computer they can reference.

I would amend that slightly. They know exactly how many people have boarded the plane and presumably who they are. People move seats to allow families to sit together or trade a window for an aisle on many flights. The airlines aren't modifying their seat assignments after you walk down the jetway.

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