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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#141

Post by swaggyBoatswain »

nstart wrote: post #128
emilsedgh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the popularity is a bit declining, isn't it?

Going to go off on a tangent here. Yes and no. By raw numbers it certainly is in a state of decline. But put in context, it may have been inevitable. It has everything going against it. DotA is a team game. It's incredibly complex. Not easy to pick up. Mastery requires 1000's of hours. And it's miserable to play at the start. The community is toxic. So random teams in a public match when you are new to the game compo…

^ This

DoTA is incredibly complicated, and has more compounding interest towards tactical strategy + gameplay + teamwork + skill execution, more so than battle royale.

In battle royale, if you played awful you just die. Then you start a new game. With DoTA that death impacts your game in the long run, putting your team at a disadvantage, since you just fed their carry. But comebacks do happen though

Going to DoTA TI:2 internationals, where all the major esports teams compete is different than anything else you've ever experienced.

Its like going to the superbowl. Except, everyone knows how to play football, usually on an average / above-average level. But, instead of a few hours, its 8+ hours, for 7+ days. It gets EXTREMELY intense, just because you because you can relate to how difficult manuveurs are, and it isn't dictated by things like how much weight you can squat in football (For faster sprinting / agility, etc). There's many little minor mental and physical gymnastics that DoTA2 pro players do 100xs better than your average player.

Comparing this to Fortnite competitive mode, its not the same. Its more closely tied to watching something with less strategical depth, such as tennis. Tennis is still exciting for its own reasons, but its mostly skill based execution, and mostly a solo game. Even if you played 2v2.

I watch both fortnite and dota2 competitive every so often

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#142

Post by cryoshon »

nindalf wrote: post #66
Leary wrote: post #39

Outfought the humans in teamfights, other than that not sure how much long term strategic thought was shown.

It was frustrating to see it do so many things well but make strange decisions otherwise - poor warding. Some wards were simply wasted. (Wards are small, invisible, immovable units that grant vision) - using powerful long cool down spells to earn gold instead of keeping it in reserve for fights - not recognising that one of the lanes needed to be pushed out. Eventually this bit them in the ass. - using buybacks where…

the poor warding isn't as big of a handicap with robots as it would be with humans

for humans, wards give you extra time to react to enemy movements and arrange ganks, check runes, etc. but the robots don't really need the reaction time bonus, and the information bonus may not be very valuable if they arent proactive about pushing and ganking.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#143

Post by swaggyBoatswain »

cryoshon wrote: post #138
emilsedgh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a team of humans made such horrible mistakes, they would never be able to compete nowhere near this level. Is OpenAI's team-fight "so good" that compensates for these huge mistakes and allows them to compete with pro teams? For me as a player, the team fights are quite confusing and overwhelming. The most complex part of the game. If the OpenAI team got the teamfights covered that well, I'm pretty much sure they c…

I assume that the robots are god-level last-hitters and farmers. perfect farming efficiency is enough to beat 99% of human teams. most players struggle to get 50 last hits in the first phase of the game, nevermind actually get every single piece of eligible farm. edit: i would also expect that the robots are deny nazis, who severely crimp the farming of anyone who opposes them in the lane.

OpenAI is significantly better than most pro players in solo middle lane early on, when playing shadowfiend vs shadowfiend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zaJ58q9vuI&vl=en

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#144

Post by akyu »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #140
akyu wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying 200ms flat reaction time is "human level" is really unfair. That is raw reaction time when a is human paying attention for a stimulus, like in a reaction time test. Lets look at casting a spell in a Dota. First I need to perceive my target. Then I need to move my mouse to the target, which is error prone. Then I need to press a button and click. Even for a human with extremely fast reaction time, this targetin…

Hm. I used to run an experiment at an Engineering Fair at school. Oscilloscope, random pulse, trigger button, time the reaction time. Some fast kids could get it down to the double-digits, even 20-30 ms, pressing that button after seeing the pulse. If I remember right.

Those were some exceptional children.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#145

Post by JoeAltmaier »

akyu wrote: post #144
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I used to run an experiment at an Engineering Fair at school. Oscilloscope, random pulse, trigger button, time the reaction time. Some fast kids could get it down to the double-digits, even 20-30 ms, pressing that button after seeing the pulse. If I remember right.

Those were some exceptional children.

Yeah it can't have been so low can it? But it was double digits. Anyway, the fastest ones would put their eye right up to the scope, so the pulse would have the largest signal right into their eye. I thought that was clever.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#146

Post by lma21 »

jpatokal wrote: post #127
rishav_sharan wrote: post #120

There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…

You may be missing the point here: it's AI, so it doesn't "think" in terms of strategies or tactics like you do, it just runs countless simulations, figures out what works in those, and then blindly applies that. So if the human opponents do things it has not been trained to cope with, they'll have a significant edge. Incidentally, this is pretty much what Kasparov did when playing Deep Blue, with some success: https…

Not sure if it helps much (I'm sure you'll find plenty of better definitions online):

Purpose: - 5 vs 5 heroes over 3 lanes and a jungle - destroy the enemy team's towers in order push towards the enemy's Ancient (base) and destroy it

> warding and dewarding

wards serve to create visibility (over the fog of war) 2 types of wards: one for general visibility, and one to detect invisible heroes (but has no visiblity over FOW)

> spell spam to farm

having a hero use multiple spells to rapidly kill a bunch of Creeps sitting somewhere in the jungle

> bouncing spells like the lich nuke

- poke spells target and damage a single enemy hero - bouncing spells target one enemy hero but can jump to nearby enemy heroes as well

> Roshan respawn

Roshan is a large creep in the jungle. It drops a precious item that resurrects heroes when they die.

> ability runes

Runes are temporary enhancers (movement speed, attack damage, ..) found in the jungle

> bad at juking

when one tries to play mind games with the enemy

> buybacks

when a player's hero dies they're allowed to pay a fee to revive their hero instead of waiting (can only be used once)

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#147

Post by [deleted] »

swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #143
cryoshon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that the robots are god-level last-hitters and farmers. perfect farming efficiency is enough to beat 99% of human teams. most players struggle to get 50 last hits in the first phase of the game, nevermind actually get every single piece of eligible farm. edit: i would also expect that the robots are deny nazis, who severely crimp the farming of anyone who opposes them in the lane.

OpenAI is significantly better than most pro players in solo middle lane early on, when playing shadowfiend vs shadowfiend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zaJ58q9vuI&vl=en

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#148

Post by citation_please »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #140
akyu wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying 200ms flat reaction time is "human level" is really unfair. That is raw reaction time when a is human paying attention for a stimulus, like in a reaction time test. Lets look at casting a spell in a Dota. First I need to perceive my target. Then I need to move my mouse to the target, which is error prone. Then I need to press a button and click. Even for a human with extremely fast reaction time, this targetin…

Hm. I used to run an experiment at an Engineering Fair at school. Oscilloscope, random pulse, trigger button, time the reaction time. Some fast kids could get it down to the double-digits, even 20-30 ms, pressing that button after seeing the pulse. If I remember right.

Hmm. Using the site that was the first Google result[0] to test myself and I could never get anything below 220ms. Could you be misremembering by a factor of 10?

[0] https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#149

Post by aeosynth »

sametmax wrote: post #126
rishav_sharan wrote: post #120

There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…

Yeah but it's already sufficient to beat the cram at anything under 3k mmr. It's quite remarquable as most players are in this loW tier.

They can beat the cram out of 6-7k players (99.95th percentile), beating Team Human - https://blog.openai.com/openai-five-benchmark-results/

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#150

Post by WhompingWindows »

emilsedgh wrote: post #129
rishav_sharan wrote: post #120

There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…

If a team of humans made such horrible mistakes, they would never be able to compete nowhere near this level. Is OpenAI's team-fight "so good" that compensates for these huge mistakes and allows them to compete with pro teams? For me as a player, the team fights are quite confusing and overwhelming. The most complex part of the game. If the OpenAI team got the teamfights covered that well, I'm pretty much sure they c…

Warding is a tough one. Outside of hard-coding it, how would you suggest the AI would learn the best locations for warding and de-warding? Can they surmise that an opponent's gank or quick reaction to their movement means there may be an obs ward? If so, where precisely is that?

I don't know if the OpenAI supports can play the warding mind-games, which also for me personally involve 1000+ games' experience. I see interesting wards from teammates occasionally and file them away in the memory bank. Especially "hipster wards", I like to call them, just wards that "see" the opponents but are not in the highest-probability spots like on pedestals or on ramp edges. Just throw an obs ward near a couple medium camps, for instance, and you can really gain some important intel w/o a sentry ruining your ward. Can the OpenAI team learn to do this sort of behavior?

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