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A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

theguardian.com

141–150 of 220 posts

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#141

This is a rather poor essay. "Many academics enter science to change the world for the better. Yet it can often feel like contemporary academia is more about chasing citations. Most academic work is shared only with a particular scientific community, rather than policymakers or businesses, which makes it entirely disconnected from practice. ... This new PhD would see students go out into the field and talk to practit…

> AFTER a PhD is finished they can go on and try to influence society using their skills, or not.

Exactly this. The primary skill developed during a PhD (for me, and those around me), is knowing the difference between:

1. solutions that can be pulled from literature (bake),

2. solutions that should be easy to assemble from existing solutions (buy),

3. what technology requires a small-to-medium delta above and beyond the bleeding edge (build)

All those are research, but far too often (3) is what everyone targets.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#142

I disagree totally. A PhD should be about curiosity and asking the most interesting scientific questions you can think of, also known as 'basic research'. You have the rest of your career to have as much impact on society and commerce as you want. Unfortunately, the social impact factor has been creeping in, in the form of more 'applied research' funding which is not fundamental and does not move scientific knowledge…

Who is paying to support you while you explore some curiosity of yours? A PhD program is not a summer camp, it's a social tool and the public is paying money in order to grow the human knowledge base. I don't get this attitude, appreciate the fact that the public is giving you grants and funding because the alternative is you get nothing.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#143
Basically every human endeavor "should" be about putting the general good over the individual good. After all, it's in one's own selfish interests for that to be the state of affairs; there are far more people not-you doing things than people who are you doing things, so you stand to benefit more if all those not-you people are doing work that indirectly improves your quality-of-life. ;)

The (sometimes literally) million-dollar question is: how do you align incentives to bring about that desired end-state? Ph.D's are not unique in struggling with this age-old conundrum; if the government is willing to pay for robotics research for drone warfare but nobody is putting up the cash to pay for nursing-care robot research, then we can make some pretty firm predictions what kind of robots we'll see mature and reliable in twenty years.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#144
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this website, the baseline for depression in America is 6.7%. http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/conditions/depression 1/3 is not normal at all.

Ive theorized the people getting a PhD are not your average american. Most college grads finish school and go into industry. My peers who went onto get PhDs without going to industry were... different. Not necessarily super smart, but not the best socially or in leadership positions. I can think of 3 people that were getting their PhDs in engineering, but I thought they were average students at best. One was an avera…

My experience was the opposite. The people in my PhD program (at an upper-tier state institution) were far better thinkers in my field (biology) than the people in my major at an upper-tier liberal arts college (who, granted, were largely pre-med).

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These phenomenons are interesting to witness for someone like myself who loves doing research but followed a very different academic path because I felt demonized by formal school systems in high school and at a state uni. Speaking purely from observation of many peers, there were definitely some who navigated the social and academic realms well, and garnered respect from socially-encourageable and conformist mentors…

I agree that academia selects for conformists, which is bad for curiousity driven research. Jeff Schmidt's book "Disciplined Minds" makes a similar argument. I have not read it all, though, so perhaps I should pick it up again. The book has a good description of the problem, but in my view the author views the process as more political than it necessarily is. I also think the book's solutions are unlikely to help. Bu…

Disciplined Minds is a great read.

Early on the book discusses some data that indicates more highly educated people tend to be more supportive politically of the government than the population in general. (E.g. during the Vietnam war lawyers defending anti-war activists in the US were trying to figure out how to pack juries with people who would be favorable to their clients and discovered that roughly the more educated someone was, the more likely they supported the government and would disapprove of anti war activism)

The book makes the argument that gaining professional credentials is less about gaining knowledge/skills, but more about demonstrating that one can be trusted to work in an organisational and confirm to the assigned goals/ideology of that organisation.

One rough argument made in the book is for workers performing roles with work that can be completely specified by superiors, it's less necessary for workers to demonstrate they can conform to how their employer wants them to think, provided they do the work. For professional roles involving more intellectual work where an employee's day to day tasks cannot be completely specified in advance, it's important for such employees to demonstrate they can think how the organisation wishes them to think, so an important part of training for these roles is essentially political training.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#146
post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

> A newly-minted bachelor's student without research experience has no preparation for the frustration, isolation, and sense of futility that real researchers face.

Don't you need a master's degree to be eligible for a doctorate program?

> If you're an undergraduate and harbor the slightest ambition to get a PhD, drop what you're doing right now and start looking for a research group to join.

How does undergraduates find a research groups to join?

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#147
post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

> > The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying

Why? Some things are hard and those things will by definition have higher dropout rates. The fact that PhD programs have high dropout rates is not necessarily an issue unto itself.

> You're going to need 2-3 years of experience actually doing research to know if it's something you'll enjoy long term.

Is it realistic to expect a college sophomore to know whether or not they want to pursue a PhD program? I wish more undergraduate programs focused on original research but if yours doesn't you may not get any exposure to it until your senior year (if even then).

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#148
post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

> A newly-minted bachelor's student without research experience has no preparation for the frustration, isolation, and sense of futility that real researchers face. Don't you need a master's degree to be eligible for a doctorate program? > If you're an undergraduate and harbor the slightest ambition to get a PhD, drop what you're doing right now and start looking for a research group to join. How does undergraduates…

> Don't you need a master's degree to be eligible for a doctorate program?

At least at most US schools, you do not. Having one helps your chances of being accepted in most cases though

> How does undergraduates find a research groups to join?

Research fairs like career fairs, or just asking profs from classes you enjoyed - every undergrad I knew in grad school just asked my prof if they could try out research.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#149
post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

> A newly-minted bachelor's student without research experience has no preparation for the frustration, isolation, and sense of futility that real researchers face. Don't you need a master's degree to be eligible for a doctorate program? > If you're an undergraduate and harbor the slightest ambition to get a PhD, drop what you're doing right now and start looking for a research group to join. How does undergraduates…

> Don't you need a master's degree to be eligible for a doctorate program?

There are 8 or 9 former classmates of mine with PhDs and only one went out of his way to get a Master's prior, and only because it was a much more prestigious institution (Georgetown) than our undergrad (unknown liberal arts college). Everyone else either entered their respective programs directly from undergrad or had industry/life experience first.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#150
The two aren’t mutex. And publish or perish. The suggestion is that academia should be utilitarian and short-term focused. This will never happen. It’s tantamount to saying “we should get rid of archeologists because they aren’t a profit-center department.”
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