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Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

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141–150 of 164 posts

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but what about political dissidents, people in abusive relationships, people in backwards areas who aren't heterosexual, just play shy people, and many others? I don't have a clear cut answer myself, because on the other hand, anonymity opens the floodgates to so much manipulation that also ends up hurting real people, and that will only get worse as technology gets refined in those directions. Those that want…

I think policing your own thoughts and communication in a social setting is an essential element to human discourse, and the lack of self policing is exactly why online discourse is substantially lower quality and is based on bad faith.

There's a difference between self-control and a chilling effect on speech, though. I see no problem with someone being mindful about what they are saying and how they are saying it. I do see a problem with someone self-censoring a discussion or expression of an idea because of fear, especially fear of the government, or fear of other damage to their lives.

If people are afraid to express ideas simply because those ideas aren't popular (even if they aren't very controversial) I think the quality of discourse is lowered.

When a not-out member of the LGBTQ community can't enter a discussion or express something because doing so would tie that to their real name, having to self-censor because of a lack of anonymity becomes a problem.

I don't know that there is a perfect solution, either. Having full anonymity introduces other problems.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make negative campaign ads illegal. Elections are votes FOR a candidate, not votes against someone.

Are you serious? That is called censorship. Sure, don't let there be ads that reveal a candidate formerly ran a sex trade ring and is a pedophile ETC.

It's already regulated. They are forced to say "paid for by the committee to elect".

The public airwaves are regulated by the FCC. There is no reason to pay broadcasters to prevent some candidate from becoming elected.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#143
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to make a value judgement by using a word like "behind", but I do think most Americans are simply not aware of how extreme our country's stance on free speech is compared to the rest of the world. Countries like the UK, France, and Germany seem to function just fine with their more restrictive laws on speech.

Could be that it’s only “fine” in the short term. Just 80 years ago Germany was very far from “fine”.

There were a lot of hate-speech laws when Hitler came to power. He even used the fact he was prevented from speaking publicly as propaganda. And yes, a lot of legislation of Weimar to censor spoken and written word has been extended by the Nazis after they came to power.

People arguing for more moderation and more censorship generally lack perspective when they refer to fascism in the same breath. Free speech is a most effective disinfectant against fascism.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the words, it is entirely illegal in many countries around the world. The USA is behind the curve on that.

Most would argue that other countries are incredibly behind on what freedoms that the US protects.

So you are suggesting that a country that birthed one of the worst fascist regimes, and that implemented strong hate speech laws after such, is behind the USA?

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be that it’s only “fine” in the short term. Just 80 years ago Germany was very far from “fine”.

There were a lot of hate-speech laws when Hitler came to power. He even used the fact he was prevented from speaking publicly as propaganda. And yes, a lot of legislation of Weimar to censor spoken and written word has been extended by the Nazis after they came to power. People arguing for more moderation and more censorship generally lack perspective when they refer to fascism in the same breath. Free speech is a mo…

> There were a lot of hate-speech laws when Hitler came to power.

False.

https://www.unodc.org/cld/en/legislation/deu/german_criminal...

https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most would argue that other countries are incredibly behind on what freedoms that the US protects.

So you are suggesting that a country that birthed one of the worst fascist regimes, and that implemented strong hate speech laws after such, is behind the USA?

They were NOT just implemented after the fascist regime. They were already in place. Ironically these laws were used against Hitler to prevent him from speaking publicly and he was very proficient to use the fact he was barred to speak freely.

"Einer allein von 2000 Million Menschen der Erde darf in Deutschland nicht reden" => "He alone from 2000 million humans on earth isn't allowed to speak in Germany." - propaganda of the NS.

We had hate speech laws since we had an emperor. Freedom of opinion is one of the most fundamental rights in modern Germany.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are suggesting that a country that birthed one of the worst fascist regimes, and that implemented strong hate speech laws after such, is behind the USA?

They were NOT just implemented after the fascist regime. They were already in place. Ironically these laws were used against Hitler to prevent him from speaking publicly and he was very proficient to use the fact he was barred to speak freely. "Einer allein von 2000 Million Menschen der Erde darf in Deutschland nicht reden" => "He alone from 2000 million humans on earth isn't allowed to speak in Germany." - propagand…

Have you researched the history of section 130 and 131? It doesn't appear you have any awareness as to the history of the laws, nor what constitutes a "hate" law. Basis for 130 131 laid in 1946.

History of hate laws in Germany here: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=12273096193760058...

> On May 23, 1949, the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany was promulgated to serve as the cornerstone of a democratic state designed to protect individual liberty. Accordingly, the Grundgesetz, or Basic Law, is patterned upon the tradition of Western constitutionalism and is a direct historical reaction to the disastrous Weimar Republic and Third Reich." The Basic Law regulates two types of rights and relations. The first type, the Basic Laws, pertain to the rights of individuals and the state. The Basic Laws are characterized by many of the classic human rights found in the U.S. Bill of Rights. The second type, the Rights to a Free Democratic Order, concern the rights of governmental organs, the organization of the state, and the relationships between the various state organs.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They changed to a "real name" policy and now the comments, while much reduced, are also much more thoughtful and tend to stay on-topic. Real name policies eliminate specific categories of speech. One of those categories is trolling, which naturally makes everybody very happy. The problem is that some of the other categories are really important . If you require real names then people with minority views are afraid…

I'm in favor of deanonymizing social media. I don't think it will affect whistleblowing, because so far mainstream social media has not been such a great source of whistleblowing. Anonymous leaks are still best presented by a journalist that's willing to vet the info and put their name on it. What anonymity does do to social media is muddy the waters to a great degree. Online discourse is now built on bad faith, beca…

> I don't think it will affect whistleblowing, because so far mainstream social media has not been such a great source of whistleblowing.

It's not just about The Pentagon Papers and Wikileaks. It's about people being able to point out banal incompetence and small scale corruption so it can be corrected without being retaliated against by petty members of the city government with egg on their face, even when there are no journalists willing to take the small story.

It's not even just about whistleblowing. When you have to write everything knowing your mother, your boss and every busybody in the PTA will probably read it, people are going to self-censor.

And then there's this: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/twitter-t...

> Anonymous leaks are still best presented by a journalist that's willing to vet the info and put their name on it.

Journalist is not a title of nobility, it's anyone engaged in that specific activity.

To do what you're asking, a source would need to anonymously send the information to different prospective journalists until one has the resources and willingness to vet and publish it, in parallel if it's at all time sensitive. In other words, the source needs the ability to send information anonymously to an arbitrarily large number of people with no formal credentials. Who then themselves need the ability to anonymously pass it on to arbitrarily many others who they think might have more resources or be more willing to formally attach themselves to something with risk of retaliation by powerful forces.

Which is basically a description of anonymous social media.

> What anonymity does do to social media is muddy the waters to a great degree. Online discourse is now built on bad faith, because of the lack of consequence and reputation.

We already have the ability to verify identities. We know that @ggreenwald on Twitter is Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept because it says so on the official web page of The Intercept.

Nothing stops anyone from only reading things written by people with verified identities. If you don't like anonymous or pseudonymous speech then why are you listening to it? Instead what you're proposing is to prohibit everyone else from hearing it. Which is never something anyone should get to decide for everyone else.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a lot of hate-speech laws when Hitler came to power. He even used the fact he was prevented from speaking publicly as propaganda. And yes, a lot of legislation of Weimar to censor spoken and written word has been extended by the Nazis after they came to power. People arguing for more moderation and more censorship generally lack perspective when they refer to fascism in the same breath. Free speech is a mo…

> There were a lot of hate-speech laws when Hitler came to power. False. https://www.unodc.org/cld/en/legislation/deu/german_criminal... https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...

False.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/prop/resn/ns_re...

And yes, he was banned from speaking due to hate speech laws.

I really know that. I live in Germany and have been briefed extensively. Our last emperor was the first to introduce legislation against hate-speech. But that was in the 19th century. Of course you do not find references to laws from the Weimar Republic and before in modern legislation.

Re: Leaked white paper proposes U.S. Congressional regulation of social media

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were a lot of hate-speech laws when Hitler came to power. False. https://www.unodc.org/cld/en/legislation/deu/german_criminal... https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...

False. http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/prop/resn/ns_re... And yes, he was banned from speaking due to hate speech laws. I really know that. I live in Germany and have been briefed extensively. Our last emperor was the first to introduce legislation against hate-speech. But that was in the 19th century. Of course you do not find references to laws from the Weimar Republic and before in modern legislation.

Cite the laws, cite the history of the dates implemented. Civil remedies did not exist.

I have provided you with actual legally traceable citations to law and their implementations. You cited a propaganda poster.

You are conflating a regime of arbitrary censorship with specific and nuanced legislation that was implemented as a direct result of Nazism. To argue that the basis of Germany's contemporary hate speech laws, including the most recent legislation regarding social media, is not a direct result of Germany's experience with Nazism is delusional.

http://www.ecaj.org.au/2014/critics-of-section-18c-get-histo...

> there was no equivalent of section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act in the Weimar Germany. The only laws against hate speech were criminal offences, not civil remedies. Weimar Germany had nothing equivalent to the framework which currently exists under the Racial Discrimination Act within which complaints of racial vilification have, in the vast majority of cases, been successfully conciliated through the Australian Human Rights Commission or resolved by direct negotiations between the parties.

> In Weimar Germany, the absence of civil remedies was made worse by the fact that the relevant criminal offences were honeycombed with immunities for members of the Reichstag, the German Parliament. Nazi members of Parliament became the nominal publishers of single or multiple antisemitic publications. This facade meant that no one could be prosecuted for the hate crimes perpetrated by the publications. The Reichstag could waive immunity for its members, but did so rarely.

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