Live data from Hacker News

Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

pdfs.semanticscholar.org

141–150 of 160 posts

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a very poor idea to convince ourselves of falsehoods for personal benefit. Believing luck is not real pretty much immediately activates the just world hypothesis, which is responsible for some rather awful things happening to people. It's the kind of shallowly selfish, short-term belief set we do not want to have. It's not just about a given person and how productive they singularly happen to be, why are…

"Believing luck is not real pretty much immediately activates the just world hypothesis." This doesn't follow, and the article adnzzzzZ linked explains how it doesn't follow. In particular, if you divide the concept of truth up into "objective truth" and "pragmatic truth" as the article suggests, you can believe the just-world hypothesis is false on an objective level while still believing that you should ignore luck…

Are you sure? If you are careful about how you divide these worlds it should work well enough, but then adnzzzzZ goes ahead and makes this statement:

"Stop using luck as an excuse for your failures and other people's failures."

This doesn't really sound they have the objective world setup well, and would trivially slide down to judging unlucky people. I'm convinced that the just-world hypothesis is one of the most evil cognitive biases a culture can have (in terms of how much suffering is created, see some developments in Christian religion), so I'm not sure this is a risk worth taking.

In my life I found the most true view (as far as I can find it) to be the most useful. Knowing that luck is an important factor fairly significant rotates what you do, why you do it, what you consider important, what you think about others, etc. I think if we do develop cognitive adaptations, we should nonetheless root them in what is true. I.e., if we go for the pragmatic adaptation, why? For a lot of people, the idea that luck is important is brand new information they should sit and chew on for a while.

> you should ignore luck on a pragmatic level, because it - by definition - holds no bearing on what you can control.

So this is not quite true, and it's somewhat related to the point above. A lot of luck based events are random to the person they happen to, in the sense that they were chosen for it randomly, but have a non-random source, or arise from a non-random pattern. Someone might get sick, which is random, but how the system deals with it is not random and makes the difference in how debilitating that event can be (in other words, society has ways of modifying the effect of randomness on the system). A person might be randomly targeted, but the source of the targeting is not random (i.e., the target of a robbery may be random, but there's nothing random about the robber and their choice to rob).

The problem with the randomness concept is that it's not symmetric. If you focus on the individual only you miss the cross-effects. What we say, when we say that luck is important, is that a given person cannot conquer the world, cannot override its rules, and many of its rules are unfair. What we are not saying is that we should sit down and do nothing, in fact, we're saying the opposite: the world is broken and requires fixing, and the world should be fixed before the individual is fixed. And it is the awareness of its unfairness that is needed here. What is there to fix if a given person is fully responsible for their lives? We just blame the person and move on, as humanity has done for thousands of years.

This sort of approach (separate things into true reality and pragmatic/relevant reality) requires a lot of justification before it should be adopted.

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're communicating that there are just two dichotomies: either one believes luck is real and so should just do nothing and buy lottery tickets, or one believes it's not real and is doing things that are useful. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you were aiming at with the lottery ticket example, given that it's pretty much nobody's choice even if they believe in luck.

I spent nearly 6 years homeless. There are an awful lot of people who are homeless whose plan seems to be "buy lottery tickets" and otherwise do little or nothing to improve their situation because it seems hopeless. They feel they need a "big win" and anything less won't matter. I worked hard at solving my problems and eventually got myself off the street. There are lots of people who seem to apply that same general…

That's cool I guess, but I neither buy lottery tickets nor believe diet/lifestyle are irrelevant, yet I'm a big believer in the importance of luck and the importance of believing in the importance of luck (hehe), so where does that leave me in your dichotomy?

There's more room here than learned helplessness, in fact, I think that doesn't derive from the "luck is important" mindset at all. See my post here since I'd just be repeating the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17535786

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are endlessly fascinated with the piece of success that we might have some hope of exercising control over. It gives people something constructive to try to work on. This is generally better than hating your life and buying lottery tickets while not bothering to work towards anything. Except there's a lot more going on here and a lot more at stake. Beliefs about the world, specifically beliefs about, long st…

> Except there's a lot more going on here and a lot more at stake. Beliefs about [...] why bad things happen to good people, can dramatically affect policy decisions and what a given culture considers acceptable. Someone feeling good about themselves is absolutely not a good enough reason to mangle reality. nodnodnod > Rejection of the influence of randomness means [...] people control everything and if their determi…

> Well, it is complicated and gets very subtle. For every person who is struck by catastrophe through sheer bad luck, there is at least one who is struck by catastrophe after a series of terrible personal choices.

This one will get complicated since it's effectively a discussion on free will. :) I will say that trying to examine why people do what one could call stupid or terrible choices is an interesting exercise.

Consider, for instance, the act of smoking in a smoking-dominated country. I have grown up in such a country and I did not pick up smoking because I considered it bad. But I am also a significant outlier for other reasons (let's say I didn't have a lot of friends growing up). From a 3rd party perspective, especially one originated in a country that doesn't smoke a lot, picking up smoking seems like a very terrible idea, and it seems very straightforward to judge those people.

But consider it from the dynamics of the country: what does it mean to be a smoker, what does it mean to be a non-smoker, in such a country? Are there consequences to each? Why do most people end up smoking? What would they have to give up to not do it? Is a decision of an outlier like myself relevant/useful? What is the breaking point after which a culture switches from an activity being mainstream vs not?

If we say smoking is a terrible choice, we'd be forced to conclude that people in countries that smoke a lot must be worse people in some sense than people in countries that do not smoke a lot. A similar conclusion was once made by Milgram. But I think by now we realize that these conclusions are definitely not the right ones, so we need some other explanation.

> For example, imagine a bush-walker standing at the bottom of a cliff - a rock falls, and kills them. Looks a lot like bad luck. However, in the Australian mining industry, workers are essentially forbidden from standing near cliffs because that sort of thing is /actually quite likely/.

This, for example, doesn't sound like a choice from the perspective of the walker or worker, because they don't have the information. So on that level it looks to me to still be random. It's like choosing a career when you don't know anything about the market or what makes a good career - it's basically random from your perspective, even if there are deterministic paths all around. After all, most physical luck (i.e., accidentally tripping) is also deterministic internally, but it's luck to us because we can't tell.

It is not random for the whoever manages the Australian mining industry, because they have the information. One way to reduce randomness is having more information, which can be extended to educating people more.

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#144

He calls it cognitive distortions but doesn't seem to offer any proof that their perceptions are wrong. It is possible they were provided in the actual content as opposed to the power-points to PDF. An anorexic convinced that they are fat when they are 75 pounds and their body is falling apart from lack of calories is a distortion. These paradigms don't seem to fit the definition. There is always the possibility that…

>The criticism of creative destruction in particular - sure >it may have costs but is not doing so any better? Thinking >that preserving the status quo at the cost of advancement is >in itself a distortion arguably. This creative destruction obviously only has to happen when something cannot be changed. Then there's the question: why can't it be changed? In stiff organizations this is well-known to be there virtually…

> My far-fetched theory is that teamwork is still something very rarely found.

You could probably test this by looking at different work environments outside of Silicon Valley or even the US.

Also, a few years ago I read a NYT opinion article citing research into what teams perform best. It wasn't all that dependent on IQ, but on those where where, everyone contributes more equally, people were better at reading each other's emotional state, and which had more women[0][1]. It should be noted that women are better on average at reading emotional states, and that being better at reading each other's emotional state may play a big part in having everyone contribute equally.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/18/opinion/sunday/why-some-t...

[1] https://archive.fo/BM7BT

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#145
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? How?

- Personal Exceptionalism The grandiosity associated with mania is a superset of this. (As mentioned elsewhere, the reverse is not necessarily the case.) - Dichotomous Thinking Pretty much exactly as described in the slides. - Overgeneralization Albeit without the "Correct" part, as often as not, nevertheless leading to some very interesting discoveries. - Blank Canvas thinking To an extreme degree, rebuilding ones p…

Haha, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that these things are signs of hypomania: "having excellent social support structures, many resources, above average ability and domain knowledge, a sense of purpose in your work "

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent nearly 6 years homeless. There are an awful lot of people who are homeless whose plan seems to be "buy lottery tickets" and otherwise do little or nothing to improve their situation because it seems hopeless. They feel they need a "big win" and anything less won't matter. I worked hard at solving my problems and eventually got myself off the street. There are lots of people who seem to apply that same general…

That's cool I guess, but I neither buy lottery tickets nor believe diet/lifestyle are irrelevant, yet I'm a big believer in the importance of luck and the importance of believing in the importance of luck (hehe), so where does that leave me in your dichotomy? There's more room here than learned helplessness, in fact, I think that doesn't derive from the "luck is important" mindset at all. See my post here since I'd j…

so where does that leave me in your dichotomy?

1. I wasn't talking about you in specific.

2. It's a relatively brief forum comment. It's not reasonable to assume it needs to cover all possible use cases as if it were, say, a scholarly paper.

3. It's entirely possible to engage someone in discussion and say "Ah, well, that sounds like a dichotomy that I don't fit." or something like that without being attacking or dismissive of the basic point the person was trying to make.

4. I don't like talking to people who come across as hell bent on shooting down everything I say rather than trying to understand my point. So I think I'm probably done replying to you in this thread.

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#147
post #135
post #9

I found the slide for "Cognitive behaviour model of depression" very interesting, it's probably the best visualisation of depression taking over someones mind leading to a paralysis where simple tasks become something else and chaos emerges. Ego does, sometimes, gets in the way of getting things done but without it we wouldn't care to launch anything new/groundbreaking. Without our Ego as creator, we would have no so…

> Anyone who freelances, creates something alone, goes solo as a startup founder etc. needs these "cognitive distortions"/"mental disorders", I see them as necessary beliefs. The opposite would be someone who just blends into and becomes yet another functional toothed wheel without any manifestation of desires. A good portion of our society is like these, some people don't want more and are happy/contented. I don't t…

My 2 cents on this:

Being a jerk can work sometimes.

Take the fictional character Gavin Belson from the show Silicon Valley as an example: He's not what we would call a Leader but he has this egocentric selfish view of himself. He shares no emphatic towards people around him, which means that he can virtually do anything without caring too much. You might say he is an asshole (he is) but he will carry his vision on no matter what.

Is this guy healthy? He represents someone that no one likes. Every single employee hates hims, his ideas are terrible, he will run over people without blinking, etc.

In sports look at Cristiano Ronaldo, you can find early interviews when he was younger and didn't had any awards. If you asking who is the best football player in the world he would instantly reply: Me Some years later he actually become one of the best all time football players. You might say he has an unhealthy amount of self confidence which can be seen as arrogance. From a young age he carried this belief system/mindset that brought it several awards and broke record after record. He is completely obsessed with training that at age 33, his body has a metabolic age of 23! About 6 years ago I saw an article saying that, according to his physical therapist, he would play at a world class until age 36 and, so far, it is happening.

We can question if Ronaldo has a healthy dose of self belief. He gets things done on the pitch and we might ask at what cost? He could work a LOT less and be a decent player with millions on his bank account. No need to push his limits every single.

The same happens with developers: If you believe in open source you'll be willing to use and write open source tools despite the fact that there are closed source solutions. We could argue that this is not healthy because you're wasting your time when you could get things done in a much shorter amount of time.

Same with CEO: They all believe their product is the best and sometimes (I work with several) they seems nuts and as a developer I've to be their therapist sometimes so that their product doesn't looses touch with reality and becomes something wild that no one understands.

In the examples above it's very subjective to quantify/measure what an healthy dose of self belief looks like. You could say that they are all nuts and you would have a point:

Gavin Belson believes he is the next Steve Jobs. Ronaldo believes he is the best no matter what. Open source developers believe that closed source code is evil. CEOs believe they're the next Steve Jobs or some cliche like changing the world for better

If we kill the Ego/"Cognitive Distortions"/"Mental Disorders", there is nothing extraordinary about these people.

Having a belief, regardless of being true of false, will have the effect of you acting upon it.

Can you make 10 million dollars? Answer 1: No Answer 2: yes

If you answer No, I'm 99.9% sure you won't because you won't even try. If your answer is Yes, you'll try and you might succeeded at it. You won't might suffering along the journey to make it.

I find it very hard to classify what is a mental disorder or a personality trait. It can go both ways: wonderful or terrible.

It's a very subjective topic, to classify this as a "Cognitive Distortions" (in a negative way) is like saying that creative people and leaders should be placed in a mental institution or something like that. Some traits like kindness, empathy, helping the poor, etc. are nice things that we should nourish in our society but they might get in the way of creating value/getting things done. The idea might be scary but a psychopath doesn't gets dragged/delayed like "normal"/empathetic people. They try to get what they want without caring about the cost.

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you exhibit the cognitive distortions in the slideshow, this likely doesn't matter to you. Money, time, and goodwill are all meaningless if you don't achieve your ambition, per all 5 of them.

Just because you exhibit that distortion doesn't mean it's true! You might be less happy, even if you consciously think that the only thing that matters is chasing your ambition.

When it comes to happiness, there's no such thing as "true" outside of your own cognitive perceptions. I mean, what would that even look like? Your own happiness is just an emotion happening inside your head; how could any other person, without access to your head, tell you that you're "wrong" in perceiving that?

Now, it's possible for someone's actions to suggest that they have some subconscious motivations that are in conflict with what they say makes them happy. And it's also possible for them to grow in ways that overcome these cognitive distortions, such that chasing an ambition over all else is no longer fulfilling for them. But even if that happens, in the moments before growth they still were not losing out on anything, because their psyche at the time didn't care about what they missed out on.

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#149
post #33
post #9

I found the slide for "Cognitive behaviour model of depression" very interesting, it's probably the best visualisation of depression taking over someones mind leading to a paralysis where simple tasks become something else and chaos emerges. Ego does, sometimes, gets in the way of getting things done but without it we wouldn't care to launch anything new/groundbreaking. Without our Ego as creator, we would have no so…

We need all that. Still, it can be frightening. I have "launch fear": I delay by another week every week, because I found one or more bugs the day before, which to me is unacceptable. Also it would crush my ego if people said I hadn't noticed or bothered to fix it, because it would mean I don't care about my users. When I am launching, I want users to have the best experience possible. MVP is minimal, not bug ridden.…

Same here.

The way I try to overcome it is by thinking that there are things that I don't control. I could create an app in XYZ stack and in the months some packages are broken and unmaintained.

Just realise that if it's hard for you, it's also hard for others. If you fight for it, eventually things will work. I had many failures in the past due to arrogance, not playing along, over confidence, etc. In the end, you've to analyse the situation, learn from it and just keep going forward.

The more you fail, the better you'll become at handling it. You were born on this plant knowing nothing and you failed a lot of times, more than you can count, until you become you. Each day you're a little bit better than yesterday.

Re: Cognitive Distortions of People Who Get Stuff Done (2012) [pdf]

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you exhibit that distortion doesn't mean it's true! You might be less happy, even if you consciously think that the only thing that matters is chasing your ambition.

When it comes to happiness, there's no such thing as "true" outside of your own cognitive perceptions. I mean, what would that even look like? Your own happiness is just an emotion happening inside your head; how could any other person, without access to your head, tell you that you're "wrong" in perceiving that? Now, it's possible for someone's actions to suggest that they have some subconscious motivations that are…

> Your own happiness is just an emotion happening inside your head; how could any other person, without access to your head, tell you that you're "wrong" in perceiving that?

Saying happiness is a kind of mental state doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to be right about whether you're in it. People are constantly in denial about whether they're jealous, depressed, angry, etc. Happiness is the same thing. We all undergo some mix of positive and negative experiences in our life. We come to a conclusion about whether those add up to happiness, and that conclusion is colored by many things, like the idea that we're fulfilling some important purpose, or "crushing it" or whatever else.

As for your point about "who can tell you you're not happy", that's missing the point. It's true that someone else who is not privy to your stream of consciousness probably isn't in a position to tell you whether you're happy. But that in no way implies that your own judgment is infallible. Nothing about the world guarantees that every truth is knowable by someone, at least not easily. It may be that you're blind to your own mental state.

However, we have very good evidence in aggregate that many people chase success at the expense of happiness. They often later describe a feeling that they were deceiving themselves.

Post reply on HN