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Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

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Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#141

Post by TulliusCicero »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #117
jgaa wrote: post #45

Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. When I wrote the War FTP Daemon in 1996, as freeware, this became a problem to me. I did want to give away my work for free, but I did not want any government agency to abuse it. So I came up with a solution - a GPL license with an additional clause - that the government - any government - could not use it for any purpose…

Corporations are no less evil than governments. If anything, they may be more evil, as they are motivated solely by profit and have no particular reason to care about the population at large. Why single out governments?

Perhaps GP is an anarchist and doesn't want governments or corporations.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#142

Post by sheepmullet »

detaro wrote: post #130
sheepmullet wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I think anyone arguing for the detainment of children is not adding anything of value to the discussion or humanity and is worthy of being disregarded with reason. I think it is a sensible policy. Can you articulate why you think it is any worse than child services putting a kid into foster care when the parents go to jail for any other crime? Illegally immigrating to the US is a serious crime but you can't jai…

> Can you articulate why you think it is any worse than child services putting a kid into foster care when the parents go to jail for any other crime? I'd hope normal foster care in the US looks slightly better, and is better communicated (assuming the reports about ICE not telling parents what they are doing with their children are accurate). E.g. normally I'd expect incarcerated parents to still know about the wher…

> it seems less than clear to me that this has to be to the same "standards" as people being jailed for serious crimes

It seems clear to me they should be - it's a clear deterrent against a serious problem.

> I'd guess that if the process appeared less horrific

I agree - the optics don't look good. But part of me thinks they shouldn't look good and this will quickly lead to fewer people trying to illegally enter the country.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#143

Post by jgaa »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #59
jgaa wrote: post #45

Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. When I wrote the War FTP Daemon in 1996, as freeware, this became a problem to me. I did want to give away my work for free, but I did not want any government agency to abuse it. So I came up with a solution - a GPL license with an additional clause - that the government - any government - could not use it for any purpose…

Any entity with enough power, may use this power to do evil. It can be a government or a corporation. Al least, in our democracies, you can decide the government with your vote.

I don't think it really matters who you vote for. The people who seek power are often the people you really, really should not grant any power.

I think the problem is most western societies is really that there is no accountability for wrong doings. If a politician promotes a law that has huge, negative consequences, she will not be held responsible in any way for those consequences. As long as she succeed in deceiving the public - she will win elections and continue to abuse her power. The same goes for the "foot soldiers" in the bureaucracy, justice system, health care etc.

If a prosecutor holds back evidence and lies to the court, to get someone convicted - it has no consequences for him even if that is later proven, and even if the sentence is nullified and the person released. The victim may suffer from post traumatic stress for the rest of his life. The prosecutor goes on with his misconduct. The same goes for judges. I caught a judge in Norway deliberately breaking EU law (denying a defendant to examine witnesses) - and he even admitted that to me after the trial - it was "convenient" for him to run his court that way. It was convenient for him to just ignore one of the core principles of the justice system - the right to a fair trial. He did this regularly, and as far as I know, he's still working as a judge. (I was shocked, and contacted the agency responsible for running the courts in Norway - who confirmed to me that he was indeed breaking the law - and then did nothing).

I am an optimist. I think governments can be fixed. But I don't think the politicians will have accountability for themselves, and their servants, as a high priority any time soon. In the mean time, I don't want their bad apples to use my free work!

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#144

Post by akie »

pavelludiq wrote: post #86
bkor wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour happens according to the expectation. Within Netherlands I assume the government is usually there to make things better (though there are exceptions). What is considered better might be completely different, but still, it's assumed to be better. I've since have a…

The whole concept of liberalism is based on the assumption that governments are extremely dangerous and potentially evil and in need of constant control by both the public and it's own institutions. Even if it appears that a specific government or institution is doing good work, it is extremely dangerous to accept that as anything other than a temporary and potentially deceiving state of affairs. Constant distrust an…

That's a very cynical view of government and of society in general. You basically don't trust other people to do good just for good's sake. I'm going to assume that this view is informed by your own experiences, but your personal experience might not hold up everywhere. I'm originally from the Netherlands as well, and while the government does fuck up, life is still better with a government than without, so in the balance it would seem to me that government is a force for good.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#146

Post by jgaa »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #141
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are no less evil than governments. If anything, they may be more evil, as they are motivated solely by profit and have no particular reason to care about the population at large. Why single out governments?

Perhaps GP is an anarchist and doesn't want governments or corporations.

No, I think both governments and corporations can be a good thing - if they behave ethically and the people all the way from the top to the ones carrying out policies - are accountable for their actions.

Example: If a border-patrol officer chose to follow orders and take an infant from her mother - because it's policy, he should be liable to criminal prosecution for breaking domestic and international law. Like any soldier in the field is. If a soldier choose to follow an illegal order and commit crimes against humanity, he risk prosecution. Police officers, migration officers, judges, prosecutors - they don't. And because of that, they do a lot of harm. Again, not all of the time, and not to everyone. But too often, and too much.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#147

Post by mad_tortoise »

m_fayer wrote: post #131
jgaa wrote: post #45

Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. When I wrote the War FTP Daemon in 1996, as freeware, this became a problem to me. I did want to give away my work for free, but I did not want any government agency to abuse it. So I came up with a solution - a GPL license with an additional clause - that the government - any government - could not use it for any purpose…

Governments are what happen when a group of people live in a community too large and complicated to be governed by an ad-hoc group of elders talking it out. Governments are what happen when humans want to trade in an organized fashion. Governments are what happen when people don't want to be in a constant state of conflict, inter and intra group. Governments are what happen if your community wants to live by the rule…

Government is only inevitable, only if you believe in these sets of prerequisites for constructing a government. These all can be managed without government should the people want it. It's called anarchy, not the neo-modern destructive type, but the real ideology actually sets this out very well, that government is not needed. It is to everyone's own opinion whether or not you need government and what each of us want from government. But to outright state that we can't exist without it, I think is wrong.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#148

Post by aaron695 »

jgaa wrote: post #76
bkor wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour happens according to the expectation. Within Netherlands I assume the government is usually there to make things better (though there are exceptions). What is considered better might be completely different, but still, it's assumed to be better. I've since have a…

>> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. >If a lot of people assume this I come from Norway - by many assumed to be among the most human and decent countries in the world. When a refugee storm hit Norwegian borders a few years ago, the cabinet assigned Antichrist herself, Sylvi Listhaug, to deal with it. It would not surprise me if Trump's advisers had her mi…

I assume this is murder story - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_murders

No idea on the - "Do yo know how Norway gets rid of it's aging population? They thirst them to death."

I assume - Patients Have to Refuse Food and Fluids to Hasten Death when Terminally ill - is the only option?

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#150

Post by ionised »

int_19h wrote: post #47
everdev wrote: post #9

As I get older, it's becoming clear how intertwined our morality is with our politics. And how that bleeds into business, sports, religion, etc. It's nice to think of aspects of life that should be free from politics, but in reality that seems hard to achieve.

Any time three or more humans interact, it's politics.

It's not though, is it?
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