Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#141

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:36 AM UTC

EventH- wrote: post #132

rayiner wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is necessarily built on ideology (also known as principles). The idea that differences in outcome shouldn't be based on factors like race isn't exactly a radical one. Nor is it based on rhetoric or emotion--if we assume races are equal, differences in outcome tied to race must be the result of societal inefficiencies and failures.

First of all, principle and ideology are very different things. Secondly and more to the point, there is no reason to privilege race over any other of the millions of filters with which to slice up society to find inequalities of outcome. And even if there was, showing a correlation between one of those filters (race) and an inequality does in no way show injustice 'based on race' no matter how emphatic the assertion…

Pretending that income, one of the most important things in American society, is merely one of the “millions of ways” to classify people, and that a persistent large disparity between racial groups in that metric is mere “correlation” is intellectually dishonest.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#142

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:39 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #53

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#143

Post by kryogen1c » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:41 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #78

rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. Must we? There's another comment here about no one seeming too bothered that the NBA doesn't contain very many Asians. Is it already too racist to believe that there are certainly trends in race, and that everyone is different and should be considered on their individual merits alon…

Couldn't agree more. In what reality is lowering standards a way of raising quality? How would it help a black person to be affirmative actioned into a school their admittance evaluation indicates they could not succeed at? I guess affirmative action is only for black kids who barely don't meet the requirements?

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#144

Post by adrianratnapala » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:45 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #22

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

> By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society That's not really accurate. If you look at the Coleman report, the main study that was done in the run up to school desegregation and forced busing, it showed a bunch of negative impacts to changing the racial balance of institutions too quickly. That research was largely ignored, which in pa…

Right or wrong, it is difficult to see how forced busing counts among "policies that ignore race".

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#145

Post by jsoc815 » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:45 AM UTC

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

There are many moving parts to this case and the issue(s) it concerns.

Highly recommend people read (about) the following book by Jerome Karabel: The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion At Harvard, Yale, And Princeton.

Would also recommend Daniel Golden's The Price of Admission.

Prof. Frank Wu's insight might also be useful here (from ~1:10 onward): https://youtu.be/PrDbvSSbxk8

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#146

Post by fraudsyndrome » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:45 AM UTC

siosonel wrote: post #124

userbinator wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. Must we? There's another comment here about no one seeming too bothered that the NBA doesn't contain very many Asians. Is it already too racist to believe that there are certainly trends in race, and that everyone is different and should be considered on their individual merits alon…

We must. Asians have not been systematically denied entry to the NBA for hundreds of years. I do not deny that there are ethnic differences or cultural priorities. But if a group of people has been systematically told for a very long time that they cannot achieve anything beyond being a slave, then that oppressed group would probably not bother to engage in technical or scientific pursuits, nor would they have time t…

> Asians have not been systematically denied entry to the NBA for hundreds of years.

I find this comment goes deeper when I followed Jeremy Lin's progression into the NBA. I suggest anyone who is interested in your comment should read too. Lin wasn't systematically denied entry, but the kind of stuff he faced and endured based on his race - which was admitted to by a coach, was pretty bad.

And I feel this type of behavior that he faced - when your race is in the minority of the place you're trying to get to/be at - can be applied elsewhere. Like Black people thinking that others might think that they got there based on affirmative action and not by merit, or Asian Americans thinking that others think there are "too many Asians" here or the likes.

In some situations, minorities aren't being outright denied by law/whathaveyou but they are put in potentially "hostile" environments where they might feel like they don't belong, which can be akin to being denied socially.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#147

Post by foolrush » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #53

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

You are shocked because there is still quite a degree of colonial thinking that is pervasive.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-gen...

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#148

Post by scabarott » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #85

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

We can only become "post-racial" by acknowledging the role that race plays in our society. Otherwise, too much systemic and subconscious discrimination will get swept under the rug. Too many people who claim to want to be blind to race are either naive or willfully wanting to perpetuate conditions that are not equal based on the long history of discrimination in our society. And Harvard's admissions aren't just about…

>The one area where I do agree with you is that I think racial categories often lack the nuance necessary to have that broadness of perspective...

This. Logged in just to upvote your comment. The broad racial categories we currently use are just idiotic. It's like using nothing but a blunt mallet for every household repair job. Some more nuance in racial categorization or even just doing away with it altogether and using something else (place of origin, ethnicity, economic circumstance) would probably be a good thing as a whole.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#149

Post by fraudsyndrome » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:50 AM UTC

aabajian wrote: post #81

I think something that's overlooked is the importance of parents in admissions. Case in point: Jewish culture values education in the same way that Asian families value education. As a result, a large number of white students admitted to Ivy Leagues are Jewish. 25% of the white students in my med school (Yale) were Jewish, despite making up only 1.4% of the U.S. population. I don't agree with racial quotas, but there…

This is a thing I haven't seen discussed much either when people are talking about whether it'd be okay for Asian Americans to be 40% of the quota if it was based off of merit.

What about the percentage of Jewish students in comparison to their population (US or worldwide)? It kind of debunks that part of the argument when you bring that up. I don't believe this is whataboutism since it should be in the same context and it's already happening.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#150

Post by kryogen1c » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 3:51 AM UTC

gourial wrote: post #71

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is discrimination against Asian-Americans well intentioned? It seems like your comment is referring to affirmative action, while the subject at hand is active discrimination against a minority.

Because Harvard administrators think the upper echelons of society - which a Harvard education can lead someone to - should reflect the racial makeup of the broader society as a whole by default. While they must discriminate negatively against Asian Americans to achieve this goal, this discrimination is justified in their minds. I'm not defending it, just recognizing discrimination is not an end for them but a means…

What a bold and interesting claim! Do you have any evidence for it? I have a hard time believing the admissions board would take such a stance for such a petty reason