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FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

miamiherald.com

141–150 of 153 posts

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#141
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can tell you that uneven strut design would give you uneven loading on the span A structural engineer is quoted in the article that this uneven strut design would have worked if if that end beam was more solid.

It still bugs me. Yeah, that part would work, at least until it got loaded weird by high winds or by being hit by a truck or something. They were very unconventional in this design (new type of concrete, single row of struts, prefabricated construction, concrete instead of steel, uneven struts, computer-only analysis instead of civil engineering 101 static analysis) that it demanded extreme care. Conventional bridge…

As you said, the problem was not necessarily the idea, but that they were not careful enough.

I'm sure you noticed that sky-scraper shapes are getting weirder and more unstable-looking:

https://www.designbuild-network.com/wp-content/uploads/sites...

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#142
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a false claim to structural integrity. That's a weird claim to make. False claim to who? Joe on the street?

Joe may be as dumb as you assume, but if he sees a truss bridge with one set of struts he might well wonder how safe that is compared to all the other truss bridges he has seen. If he sees another truss bridge with only one set of struts, but with cable stays as well, he might well think that is a safer bridge than the first. He believed the bridge's implicit claim about cable stays, which was false.

Well, it was only yesterday that I learned that having a single set of struts is less stable. I always assumed they were two because they wanted to keep the middle of the bridge clear for the road.

This was my exact point: as a Joe on the street you just have to assume that the engineers got it right. A two set strutted bridge can still fail if the struts are two thin, or not of the right kind of steel/concrete. Do you really evaluate all buildings when you enter them, especially the modern weird and unstable looking ones? Have you ever avoided entering a building just because it has a crazy unstable looking design?

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#143
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joe may be as dumb as you assume, but if he sees a truss bridge with one set of struts he might well wonder how safe that is compared to all the other truss bridges he has seen. If he sees another truss bridge with only one set of struts, but with cable stays as well, he might well think that is a safer bridge than the first. He believed the bridge's implicit claim about cable stays, which was false.

Well, it was only yesterday that I learned that having a single set of struts is less stable. I always assumed they were two because they wanted to keep the middle of the bridge clear for the road. This was my exact point: as a Joe on the street you just have to assume that the engineers got it right. A two set strutted bridge can still fail if the struts are two thin, or not of the right kind of steel/concrete. Do y…

Maybe my image of this "Joe" upon whom you would look down was a little more knowledgeable than it should have been... Did you never play with an erector set as a kid?

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#144

The article barely touches on the subject, but the bridge was really unnecessary, or necessitated only by the nonsensical urban design surrounding the university. The student housing is not only on the opposite side of a gigantic road from the campus, but it's further separated by a canal and then acre after acre of parking. If any attention had been paid, at all, ever, to the built environment this bridge would not…

This area is like the endgame of the American suburban experiment. It is designed to be a collection of nice, isolated, suburban communities connected by a sprawling, auto-centric hellscape of oversized roads.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#145
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it was only yesterday that I learned that having a single set of struts is less stable. I always assumed they were two because they wanted to keep the middle of the bridge clear for the road. This was my exact point: as a Joe on the street you just have to assume that the engineers got it right. A two set strutted bridge can still fail if the struts are two thin, or not of the right kind of steel/concrete. Do y…

Maybe my image of this "Joe" upon whom you would look down was a little more knowledgeable than it should have been... Did you never play with an erector set as a kid?

My point is that if I know a bit about a subject, I don't fall into the trap of believing that I can point to "an obvious mistake" which was signed off by multiple professional people working in that area, especially in an area like civil engineering where you have criminal liability for "an obvious mistake".

Sure, I would never cross that bridge if I saw those fake stayed cables damaged after a storm, because again, I am in no position to judge the design of the bridge, but it is obviously damaged and I must assume that it is unsafe. Maybe a structural engineer would immediately spot that those stayed cables are fake and wouldn't worry about cross it. But if the bridge looks intact, I would just assume that the engineers knew what they were doing.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#146
post #96
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so was unethical. As a licensed Professional Engineer, you have to be quite careful criticizing other engineers. As long as the engineer signing off met "standard practices", he is covered and saying that he is not could get you in q…

I'm unaware of any liability that can be picked up through rendering an opinion on a design. I have participated in forensic engineering / expert witness cases in geostructural matters. In fact, the opinion of an engineer as an "expert witness" is often codified in law as retaining no liability. Asking questions and drawing conclusions is not something that presents any risks besides you being possibly proven wrong l…

> I would also add that most of the involvement of engineers during lawsuits is to establish exactly what state of practice is in the local area. It would be hard to do that if all these other engineers didn't have or couldn't give an opinion.

An engineer in a lawsuit as an expert witness is a VERY different beast from making public statements about an engineering failure.

Much of the way this is being played out in the press is that the statements by the outside engineers are implying that the engineering firm didn't due sufficient analysis.

That's a statement that they do NOT have the facts to support and falls under "libel". Under a "libel" charge, the defendant has to prove that the statements made are true rather than the plaintiff showing that they are false.

In addition, it's quite easy to take a known failure point and then backfill the analysis to find the mistake. The more interesting question would be to take the design and give it to a firm that doesn't know about the failure and see if they can find the flaw in the analysis.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#147
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is "to dampen vibrations" then obviously it isn't "fake". Vibrations are serious business; many bridges have collapsed due to vibrations, and many more (Millennium Bridge for example) have had severe trouble. Humans are particularly prone to causing vibrations because humans react to bridge movement in a way that amplifies the movement. Technical description of the bridge from the engineering firm: https://faci…

You're reading from the proposal, which is not the bridge that was built. The bridge that they built did not use the stays as structural elements, and any vibration dampening would have been minimal, i.e., a side-effect of stiffening the bridge rather than the reason for including them.

Got an as-built engineering document which contradicts the engineering proposal document? An article written by a journalist doesn't count.

Unless you can find such a document: the stays were structural elements.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#148

This was to be the location of the bridge: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sweetwater,+FL/@25.7618825... You can see some remnants of the construction on street view.

That isn't remnants. That is the bridge being built. The lower portion (deck) is there, and formwork is being built to create the middle.

The satellite view is slightly newer, with a near-completed span about ready to be moved into place.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#149
Baffling how this is ... wrong. I mean it's technically correct, but it's also not. It's like saying the drunk would not have crashed into that building if he took the turn in a different way. It's true ... but it's hardly the cause of something going wrong. You're just pointing out something that could have been done differently.

They did the obvious thing to design the bridge, given that a hangbridge was requested. They started from a standard hang bridge and then eliminated the parts above the bridge itself, realizing that if you can just pull the cables inward the bridge will support itself like a hang bridge would.

But the installable part did not look like a hangbridge, and so the contractor treated it like a non-hangbridge, that only needs support at the sides.

Then, total idiocy struck. They mismeasured. The support could not actually be placed where it was planned when the bridge was designed. It needed to move ~2m to the left. And they did that, put the bridge over it, and left.

So let's go over that last part again. They had a bridge that hung from a pole (the pole was just cut off at a certain point, and a horizontal tension structure put into it's place. Actually pretty cool. Also: despite the article's claims, that definitely works). Then the contractors removed the structure that supported the pole, placing a different support ... at a different place. So they interrupted the foundation of the bridge, making it discontinuous.

(in their defense, with 99.9% of bridges you can do that without causing a problem, which is probably why this mistake was made)

This is like interrupting a building's foundation, and having everything from the 1st floor up supported by a window. The window has some strength, of course, to hold itself up, to hold the side wall up, and generally to not be too easy to destroy, so this will work ... for a short while.

And the of course the predictable thing happens : the bridge breaks in half, at almost exactly the point where the support SHOULD have been, but wasn't ... (and let's just ignore that there would have been loud cracking for a double-digit amount of seconds before the collapse, which clearly was not judged a good reason for the contractors to stop what they were doing).

Who's at fault ? Well the original mistake is mismeasuring where the support should have been. I would not place blame on the designer, because he was working from faulty data. And yes, there were some different designs that would not have had this problem, but the sponsor explicitly asked for this design. Then there were a LOT of opportunities to detect this mistake, all of which were missed. And then there is the fatal decision, made by the contractors installing the bridge as far as I can tell. Oh we can't place the support here, let's just move it a bit. What could go wrong ? And they did move it. Then the bridge showed obvious signs of stress (cracks), right in front of them. Again, somehow this was missed (despite camera footage showing some worker pointing it out to some guy that looks important). They ignored those signs and just left after cleaning things up.

And then ... tiny little shock overloads the weak component (which is the concrete surrounding that cable/beam thing they show, obviously NOT that cable itself). And boom.

If you analyze the blame, it seems like somebody really wants the contractor's decision to just place the bridge on different supports (which, again, is not a problem with 99.9% of bridges) to be the right call. If you force that decision to be reasonable, then there's little choice but to blame the design for not allowing for that. It seems unlikely in the extreme that the design firm hadn't warned the contractors about this though.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#150
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, speculations during an ongoing investigation do not do anything good. Ruining someone's career without actually having all of the facts is poor form. On the other, criticising a collegue for a mistake that is only obvious in retrospect is also poor sportsmanship.

After you've dropped a bridge on dozens of occupied automobiles, your career is ruined, full stop. No one in TFA claimed that the mistakes were "only obvious in retrospect". All 4 experts independently identified strut 11 as being far too weak, after less than a weekend of study. The original engineer whose firm was paid millions of dollars should have performed the same analysis they did over the weekend, at least.

1. Accidents happen. If the original engineering firm followed accepted practices then it doesn't matter how quickly someone else found the flaw after the flaw was made evident by the collapse.

2. "After you've dropped a bridge...": Until the investigation is complete, no one has any business assigning responsibility. (In fact, the investigation probably won't assign responsibility; that will be the job of the court system in the subsequent lawsuits.)

http://to70.com/why-aviation-safety-experts-dont-talk-about-...

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