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Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

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141–150 of 372 posts

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#141
post #82
post #57

I've had a tremendous amount of respect for Mark Zuckerberg as a leader, and have gone out of my way to defend him in the past ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17128369 ). I always envisioned whatsapp as a defensive purchase that would stay true to its initial vision (perhaps being used to prop up their other products in an unintrusive manner). But this article makes me realize Mark is s a one-trick advertising…

Facebook ads genuinely add value though. 78% of randomly polled US consumers discovered a new product that interested them on Facebook: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/internettrendsreport2018-180... (From Mary Meeker's 2018 report).

The slide says just that people have bought stuff they found on "Social Media". Doesn't mention that these are through ads or any indication of "Facebook ads genuinely add value though".

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#142
post #97

"WhatsApp also negotiated for nicer bathrooms, with doors that reach the floor." This is not a norm in silicon valley/states?

I had no idea this was a thing until a french coworker mentioned it as one of the stranger things he noticed when he moved to the US. I've been to France and other countries in Europe/Asia/SAmerica but never noticed that the stall doors reached the floor.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#143
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how useful it would be if when there is a notification about a friend on Facebook, you could peek it by swiping on the notification in the android drawer like you can with texts, without entering the Facebook app. Nope. Engineers are dedicated there to increasing other things than the utility of the app. Interests aren't aligned with the users. Same with removing chronological feeds. Turn things more and more…

What do you mean by peeking at the notification?

Seeing the actual content of the notification instead of, e.g., "John mentioned you in a comment.".

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#144
post #57

I've had a tremendous amount of respect for Mark Zuckerberg as a leader, and have gone out of my way to defend him in the past ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17128369 ). I always envisioned whatsapp as a defensive purchase that would stay true to its initial vision (perhaps being used to prop up their other products in an unintrusive manner). But this article makes me realize Mark is s a one-trick advertising…

To be honest all of the Silicon Valley innovators have this cult of personality that once you look behind the curtain they act in their own self interest (which isn't a bad thing). For example Elon Musk has his "Iron Man" persona that puts himself on a pedestal and projects an ideal that his companies will solve the worlds problems. Once you look behind the curtain you see that he uses this to justify long hours by h…

It pays to signal that you’re mission driven. Employees engage more.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#145
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most frustrating change for me was FB (or Messenger later) used to send me an email when I received a message, with the message content inside the email. A few years ago they removed the content from the email and forced me to log into FB or Messenger to see the message. It's extremely user hostile.

Not to defend FB on this but I can see them doing this defensively. I've seen doctors offices using FB to keep patients updated with their activities (free 'Healthy Eating' seminar), which has unintentionally been used to sent messages like 'Hey Doc needs to reschedule your colonoscopy appointment'. I'm sure FB doesn't want to get involved with indirect HIPAA violations, even if the fault lies elsewhere.

wouldn't using facebook be a hipaa violation in and of itself? doesn't information like that need to be contained to pre-approved, secure methods?

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#146
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just not creative enough, but what is a better alternative? Let's say you have a subscriber model, but than what kind of world will it be where only the wealthy have access to these communication technologies and access to social information. Or you have a hybrid ad model with the ability to opt out by paying some fee. Than what kind of world will that be when privacy is a luxury item limited to how much yo…

Free version for those with verified low income? (I've been toying with models like this for awhile, and not to say its an easy or simple solution to implement, especially when considering bad actors, but it seems the best chance at getting something "fair") Alternatively could steal from games and add "cosmetics". Charge extra for things like themes that personalize but don't necessarily improve the experience. Item…

Proof of work from non-paying customers? Something that benefits the company (retweet to pay), or better yet, something that makes the world better? (eg pick up trash, socialize with an invalid, etc.)

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#147
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone is convinced to part with their money does not mean they meaningfully added value to their life. Certainly generates value for Facebook and retail, though.

Ah, yes, because we brilliant hacker news readers know that the average person is too stupid to know what things they should buy or not buy.

That's not my interpretation of that comment. To wit:

There are only a few things you can know about someone clicking 'buy' as the result of an ad:

1. The ad platform booked top-line revenue

2. The seller booked top-line revenue

3. The buyer exchanged money for something they thought was worth it at the time of purchase.

That's it. Even #3 is conjecture, but it's likely enough that I'm willing to run with it for sake of argument.

We do not, and short of asking, can not know if that purchase added value to the buyer's life.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#148
post #113

This is one of the weirdly recurring founder stories of 'after you sold something for good money, you don't get to tell the buyer what to do with it'.

Likewise, this is why acquisitions come with golden handcuffs and lockups.

I think everyone handled it well. They fought for what they believed in, they lost, and they chose to give up money instead of sticking around and being a pain in the ass. Facebook rightly said "we bought this and control it and here's what we want to do."

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#149
"When Facebook bought WhatsApp, it never publicly addressed how the divergent philosophies would coexist.

...

But Mr. Zuckerberg told stock analysts that he and Mr. Koum agreed that advertising wasn't the right way to make money from messaging apps.

...

Some of the employees were turned off by Facebook's campus, a bustling collection of restaurants, ice cream shops and services built to mirror Disneyland.

...

Mr. Zuckerberg wanted WhatsApp executives to add more "special features" to the app, whereas Messrs. Koum and Acton liked its original simplicity.

...

Mr. Zuckerberg and Ms. Sandberg also wanted Messrs. Koum and Acton to loosen their stance on encryption to allow more "business flexibility," according to one person familiar with the matter."

It sounds like Koum and Acton actually had some principles. Among other things, they wanted to keep the software relatively simple, instead of continuously increasing its complexity by adding "features". The article suggests others saw Acton as a "moral compass". It also suggests David Marcus president of messaging products at Facebook Inc. called his #deleteFacebook remark "low class" behaviour. How to resolve this apparent contrast?

The article suggests Sandberg reacted to the Acton tweet by called Koum instead of calling Acton. It sounds like Facebook's legal department had no leverage (e.g. a non-disparagement clause) over Acton to prevent him from sharing his true thoughts regarding Facebook Inc. He chose his principles, including the freedom to express his opinion of Facebook Inc., over the stock options he forfeited.

If these founders really did have principles, and there are ample indications that they did (not limited only to what this article discusses), then is this not admirable? Their stock, compensation and benefits packages were large enough to make most folks abandon any principles in exchange for a much higher standard of living.

It also sounds like the WhatsApp staff actually like to engage in cerebral work, hence their desire for quiet and their dislike for the "Disneyland" environment at Facebook. Is there an alternative explanation?

Perhaps the lesson here is that "culture clash" may not be so important in these types of acquisitions, where the primary asset is users. These users can be transitioned to whatever the acquiring company desires.

For example, there could be a culture clash between a proprietary software company that acquires a company that offers free source code repository services for free/open source code authors. If the founders acquire significant, life-changing wealth from the transaction and the primary asset being acquired is end users, then any clash of principles or work culture is arguably insignificant.

The analyst quoted in the article calls Koum and Acton "naive" for believing Zuckerberg would not renege on his promise not to use advertising to generate revenue. He offers the ever persuasive cliche that Facebook is "not a charity".

Was WhatsApp a "charity"? It was covering its own expenses and turning a profit at the time of acquisition. It was saving millions of people money on SMS and voice calls. When it sold, it generated a lot of wealth for its investors. Was it not a success. By all accounts it never took money from advertisers.

While Facebook, like a few other oversized ad-financed tech companies, has the purchasing power to acquire any emerging competitor for users' attention, one could argue that WhatsApp had something Facebook does not: principles.

From the article it does not sound like acquring WhatsApp's principles was ever part of the deal.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#150
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past the function of the "phone company" was a paid for service which provided for your communication needs. You didn't have to listen to ads before you could talk to your friends but you did occasionally get unwanted calls. This medium reached people rich and poor, all around the world. The challenge here is greed. One of the interesting topics in economics is the ability to subvert the supply-demand curve by…

I don’t know how old you are, but phone calls were really expensive in the decades before 2000. It’s not something low income people could afford to do very often.

Your talking about long distance, local calls were inexpensive and available to all for low prices.
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