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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#141

Post by mc32 »

hoppa_liza wrote: post #132
mc32 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what’s the alternate option? If the US hadn’t been the “police” of the world. It could have been Russia or China or India, would we rather have had them? And don’t say Europe unless you consider France and the U.K. and others and their things. We don’t live on a vacuum. If you create one, someone will fill it. I am loath to think of how much worse things could be despite the idiotic wars of Obama and W., I thin…

If you boil down your statement into "I would rather have the Americans kill these people than the Chinese" you will begin to see the real meaning of what you are saying.

Maybe I’d ask the Vietnamese, who we fought, who they’d rather have, or the afghans who fought the USSR, who they’d rather have to get the meaning of what I’m saying. You can also ask the Pakistanis if they’d rather have US or India, go ahead.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#142

Post by paganel »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons?

In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic...) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activities that strongly work against achieving that goal (even though there would be some who would say that in the short term they do the opposite, i.e. that the military's purpose is to bring peace).

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#143

Post by bambax »

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

> all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII

During WWII the US was freeing the world from oppression; now it's more seen as the oppressor. The side you're on is pretty important (as it was during WWII).

This is even more true in the case of drone operations and so-called "AI" assisted actions, where operators sitting safely in air-conditioned facilities in the California desert can decide to remotely kill people with no risk to themselves.

I very much understand why a normal Google employee would prefer to have no part in that. Google understands it too, since it actively tried to keep the deal secret and minimized its impact when it became known.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#144

Post by cpeterso »

remarkEon wrote: post #73
strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

I think the reason this is a problem is something you stated: Google brands itself as a global company. I’m an American and while I acknowledge the density of intelligent people that work at Google, the fact that they ostensibly have “global interests” makes me concerned that they could do this work safely. Please do not interpret that as some jingoistic platitude. That’s just...reality. While the “company” may be lo…

Similarly, how would people feel if Google, as a global company, was developing drone tech for other countries?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#145

Post by jjuhl »

non_sequitur wrote: post #89
oliveshell wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in God’s name are you asking? You seem confused as to the nature of my comment, which was merely pointing out the massive difference in context between WWII and today.

So your contention is that you have to be fighting a world war in order to help your military? (The post you responded to) There's no other reason to help your military? Really? Edit: this came out a bit snide so let me elaborate. There are plenty of reasons you may want to help your military when there isn't a world war going on. You can do it for patriotism. You can do it for the economics. You can do it because mi…

"There's no other reason to help your military?" - I would say that there is indeed no reason to help the military in any way. We would all be a lot better off if the military was disbanded and people would focus on other things than killing eachother. And take it a step further and ban guns/weapons in general, both ownership and production (including for state actors) and we would be one step closer to world peace.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#146

Post by badminton1 »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

For context, read the testimonial of a drone operator.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-dron...

Now imagine removing decision making from drone operators and making the thing dumb and autonomous, so a computer vision based solution just shoots anything resembling its target.

If shit goes south, just blame the machine. It's nobody's fault. It's a plausible deniability paradise.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#147

Post by eksemplar »

slg wrote: post #140
mattnewton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-oba... It’s not the military that is evil, it’s this particular program in the eyes of many. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333 Disclaimer: I am also fortunate to work at Google an…

>Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. I don't understand this logic. Drones are a weapon. They are not any more evil than any other weapon that the military uses. They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death. The pilot just happens to be hundreds or thousands miles away from the aircraft. Would we be fine wit…

So the people who build the Death Star are innocent? The guilty don’t feel guilty, they learn not to.

I wouldn’t personally want to work in weapons development, but I certainly wouldn’t want to work in weapons development for a military that as a result of its offensive use of its weapons is making children in the third world afraid of blue skies.

But I have a gmail and I use google maps, so I’m not really in a position to judge.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#148

Post by dayaz36 »

One of the contractual requirements for Google's acquisition of Deep Mind was that their technology will never be used for military purposes. I wonder if Google did this behind their back or Deep Mind is fully aware and is doing this willingly?

"One constraint we do have— that wasn’t part of a committee but part of the acquisition terms—is that no technology coming out of Deep Mind will be used for military or intelligence purposes." -Demis Hassabis

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#149

Post by adamsea »

slg wrote: post #140
mattnewton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-oba... It’s not the military that is evil, it’s this particular program in the eyes of many. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333 Disclaimer: I am also fortunate to work at Google an…

>Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. I don't understand this logic. Drones are a weapon. They are not any more evil than any other weapon that the military uses. They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death. The pilot just happens to be hundreds or thousands miles away from the aircraft. Would we be fine wit…

> Would we be fine with the military killing the exact same people if the pilot was simply on the aircraft that launched the missiles or bombs?

No.

> If your problem is with killing people, it should be with the people who ordered the killing and not the specific weapon that was used to carry out the killing.

In the context of this discussion the problem would be with the weapons designers.

That said, to imply drones are just like previous weapons is naive. The ethics of warfare change over time as the weapons used to wage it change. And death in war being even more abstracted away via drones (a process began with the first thrown rock and continued up through the carpet bombing of WWII and Vietnam) is certainly worth discussing.

If nothin else drones raise the question of scale - they allow for a lot more targeted killings.

Until the day war becomes an ugly memory we should all do as much as possible to examine and understand the forms of dehumanization it produces.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#150

Post by arrownot »

slg wrote: post #140
mattnewton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-oba... It’s not the military that is evil, it’s this particular program in the eyes of many. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333 Disclaimer: I am also fortunate to work at Google an…

>Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. I don't understand this logic. Drones are a weapon. They are not any more evil than any other weapon that the military uses. They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death. The pilot just happens to be hundreds or thousands miles away from the aircraft. Would we be fine wit…

What if the one that ordered the killing is an AI system designed by Google? Who is to blame? Remember that clients don't know the full implications when they ask for a service.
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