Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry • Hacker News Board

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#141

Post by nukeop » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:29 AM UTC

hackbinary wrote: post #135

Okay, cool. But the energy still has to be produced somehow. Are we shifting the diesel to coal power plants? So for every km driven, what is the comparative amount of CO2 produced? Is there a net benefit in this regard? Coal power plants might be more efficient, but then we are shifting the smoke stacks. Then what about the batteries? The batteries need to be produced, and they have a useful lifespan, then need to b…

The point is that you don't shift to coal power plants, you're supposed to get your energy from clean sources, such as nuclear, geothermal, and solar. You are presenting a false dichotomy, and engaging in whataboutism to create a distraction.

Maybe the batteries aren't very good for the environment, and maybe there are still problems to be solved with energy generation - it doesn't mean that it's not worth it to try to make our vehicles cleaner.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#142

Post by volgo » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:31 AM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #72

ChuckMcM wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is picking nits :-) Not only is China rapidly building nuclear power plants, containing the emissions of one plant burning coal is easier than containing the emissions of the 10,000 buses that plant provides power to operate. There is also a benefit to China converting from oil (something imported[1]) to coal (something available locally[2]). [1] https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Chinas-Becomes-Worlds-... [2…

> That is picking nits No, actually it's not. The source of electricity matters, and just because something doesn't directly emit pollutants does not mean its power is derived without emitting pollutants.

Yes you are nitpicking. It's like if someone says "paper bags reduce wastes by 50%" and you retort "welllll you still need need factories to make those paper bags." It's literally the definition of nitpicking

In this case, you're doing so in an attempt to undermine the activity raised in the parent. Not sure what your intention is, but definitely not supported by logic

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#143

Post by jabl » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:33 AM UTC

pingou wrote: post #124

"they consume 30 times more fuel than average sized cars". Is that true? That seems gigantic, I thought taking so bus was so much better for the planet than taking your car.

I guess this number must take into account that the average city bus is driven a lot more than the average car.

On a fuel consumption per km, not to mention per km*passenger, it's way too much. Some number e.g. at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#144

Post by nickserv » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:33 AM UTC

profalseidol wrote: post #111

danans wrote: post #21

It's a strange shift in affairs that China appears to have the greatest incentives (urban pollution, petroleum imports) today to advance clean transportation and energy while the US has stalled or moved backward, at least the Federal level. Western European countries, for whom fossil fuels don't seem to be an identity politics issue like in the US, are also making more progress in electrifying their transportation an…

Perhaps the Oil companies control the US gov't. Or perhaps they're actually the same.

Interesting then to note that Norway, where the oil company is majority owned by the government, also has the largest per capita fleet of electric cars.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#145

Post by petre » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:37 AM UTC

hackbinary wrote: post #135

Okay, cool. But the energy still has to be produced somehow. Are we shifting the diesel to coal power plants? So for every km driven, what is the comparative amount of CO2 produced? Is there a net benefit in this regard? Coal power plants might be more efficient, but then we are shifting the smoke stacks. Then what about the batteries? The batteries need to be produced, and they have a useful lifespan, then need to b…

Well, using electric vehicles does create more battery storage to charge using solar during daytime off-peak hours. You go to work, park your car in a parking equipped with chragers and your car charges while you sit and work. The parking lot and the neighbouring buildings can have solar panels on their roofs to supply the electricity. Same during night time off peak hours: you car can charge while you sleep mainly using excess nuclear or wind power. But this discussion is about public transport, which works equally better because during daytime off-peak hours people are mainly at work and half of the bus fleet can charge up.

I'm sure going electric is not 100% clean, but it displaces smog from the cities and power generation can be diversified and even distributed. So in many respects it's better. It's definitely better for urban transport where you don't need hundreds of miles of autonomy. The rest of the vehicles that go outside cities can be switched to plugin hybrids running on LPG and DME, which are cleaner alternatives to petrol and diesel. When they get into urban areas they can switch to fully electric if the transport code requires it.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#146

Post by wereHamster » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:39 AM UTC

nickserv wrote: post #144

profalseidol wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the Oil companies control the US gov't. Or perhaps they're actually the same.

Interesting then to note that Norway, where the oil company is majority owned by the government, also has the largest per capita fleet of electric cars.

But the norwegian government is owned by people, unlike the US govt which is owned by corporations. And the people know that it's in their best interest to switch to EV. Also, the norwegian government will end their investments into oil & gas: https://www.ft.com/content/611c2e9e-cad9-11e7-aa33-c63fdc9b8...

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#147

Post by yread » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #14

The scale of this is astounding and wonderful: "China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017, accounting for 17 percent of the country’s entire fleet. Every five weeks, Chinese cities add 9,500 of the zero-emissions transporters—the equivalent of London’s entire working fleet, according Bloomberg New Energy Finance."

Hmm something doesn't add up, or I'm misreading it... if the rest of the world only has 1% of 385,000 (3,850) how come just London has 9,500?

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#148

Post by wazoox » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:46 AM UTC

hackbinary wrote: post #135

Okay, cool. But the energy still has to be produced somehow. Are we shifting the diesel to coal power plants? So for every km driven, what is the comparative amount of CO2 produced? Is there a net benefit in this regard? Coal power plants might be more efficient, but then we are shifting the smoke stacks. Then what about the batteries? The batteries need to be produced, and they have a useful lifespan, then need to b…

Even producing electricity from non renewable in large power plants is better than using these same fuels directly: large power plants are much more efficient (close to 40% energy efficiency vs 30% for vehicle motors), and allow much more easily to filter out pollution, including CO2 capture. Sure going from diesel to coal would be bad, but going from diesel engines to diesel power plant would be a significant gain.

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#149

Post by janekm » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:49 AM UTC

rmason wrote: post #48

What's sad is that the majority of electric buses being purchased both in America and around the globe aren't manufactured in the US. We have a Silicon Valley company, Tesla, that kicked off the world-wide move to battery powered autos. Why is there not a US company recognized as the leader in buses? There are a few California companies on this list but they're tiny. Here in Michigan the leading player is French and…

Well, BYD has a factory with a capacity for 1500 electric buses per year opened in California last year: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/07/c_136662718.htm So I imagine the majority of their buses sold in the US in the near future will be built there. Of course that's a small proportion of the number of buses they sell in China...

Re: Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

#150

Post by nickserv » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:50 AM UTC

abakker wrote: post #67

danans wrote: post #21

It's a strange shift in affairs that China appears to have the greatest incentives (urban pollution, petroleum imports) today to advance clean transportation and energy while the US has stalled or moved backward, at least the Federal level. Western European countries, for whom fossil fuels don't seem to be an identity politics issue like in the US, are also making more progress in electrifying their transportation an…

I don't know if it really proves anything and it might be OT from your point, but, the confounding variable is that in the US - especially outside of the major urban areas - everything is just very far away in terms of miles. Lacking a car, you can expect life to be very difficult. there are still plenty of places in the US where the range of a tesla might be a borderline problem week-to-week. (though probably not as…

Yes, it's difficult if not impossible to live in most places in the US without a car, the only real exception I can think of is NYC.

However, it has nothing to do with the size of the country, it's in the way towns and cities are laid out.

For one thing, discrete residential and commercial zones separated by vast distances and linked by highway are the norm. This makes it impractical to walk or bike to work or shopping. In suburbia, there is no such thing as a corner deli...