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Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

nextrends.swissnexsanfrancisco.org

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Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#141

Post by chrisper »

hobo_mark wrote: post #59
electricslpnsld wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zurich pay can eclipse Valley pay. I have friends who went to ETH for grad school and were getting close to 100k CHF a year. This is grad school -- the pay goes up from there.

On the other hand, you will need that much to live there! Take this 250k googler, he's more frugal than anyone I know and yet they spend 90k/yr living in Zuerich. http://retireinprogress.com/2017-q4/

> On the other hand, you will need that much to live there!

This is not true. (I live in Switzerland)

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#142

Post by m_mueller »

aetherson wrote: post #52

Y'know, I once was talking to a hiring manager about my potential job. He said something about working 10 hour days and often working weekends. I said, "Great, I don't think this job is for me. I hope you guys do well!" And then I got another job, and I work 8 (maybe sometimes more like 8.5) hour days and no weekends. Outside of genuine "we're on fire" operational catastrophes, which happen like once or twice a year.…

As a Swiss I think you got a healthy attitude. Many Americans seem to think that they have no power over what's forced up them in the workplace. You're selling a valuable, sought after and potentially unique good - your expertise. Don't let BigCorp trample all over you, they need you. Employee retention rate is a very important metric for any good company - if they don't care about that it's a big red flag for any potential employee. In fact, IMO governments should publicly list retention rates of all employers.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#143

Post by timewarrior »

jpatokal wrote: post #135
adventured wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much experience do you personally have with Switzerland based start-ups? Serious question. The parent's comment is valuable because they actually have direct experience with the topic. It's being upvoted accordingly. Very few people on HN are likely to have direct experience with Swiss start-ups, further amplifying the value of the parent's input.

The parent's comment is valuable overall, but nextstep is quite correctly pointing out that that particular observation is phrased in absurd terms. You know how people joking referly to something that was a recent fad as being "so 2016"? That was two years ago. Are Swiss startups hopeless because they're still focused on "millennial engagement" ( so 2016) instead of "viral learning" or "augmented reality talent manag…

Nowhere did I say that Swiss startups are hopeless, either due to this reason or overall. This was a conclusion driven by nextstep and few others. And I think it was largely due to my mistake. I should have used "latest" where as I used "best". What I really meant was:

>> 2. Behind Silicon Valley on latest technology and product building practices by at least 2 years.

In fact I said that if it weren't for immigration uncertainty, I would move there tomorrow. Last year, I moved to Seattle from SF to experience a change of pace. So it's not that I have blind love for all things SF.

SF has a lot more startups trying out things in a small geography. They are trying a lot more things and failing a lot more and consequently learning a lot more.

There are benefits and drawbacks of not being the first mover. Many a times you do not waste time, effort and money going after dead end ideas (remember HomeJoy). Sometime it leads to missing out on things like AirBnb (especially relevant to as tourist driven economy as Switzerland).

With lesser startups being formed, comparatively lesser capital available - Swiss ecosystem is trying to find it equilibrium. And as I originally mentioned - they are really smart people. They will figure out what is best for them.

This thread was also a good learning for me. Every word matters. Sometimes, you try to sneak a post in between other work and things slip!

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#144

Post by m_mueller »

OxO4 wrote: post #38
msd81257 wrote: post #4

Hey all! Original author here. Seems like the server might be down. Bumping @jotaen's comment on the cached link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0W2gpfw... Thanks @jotaen!!! Really appreciate it.

Minor comment: Stanford is $16,329 _per quarter_, not semester.

jaw dropped

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#145

Post by timewarrior »

timewarrior wrote: post #3

I have been involved with Swissnex and been advising Swiss startups for some time. I also go to Switzerland every other year if not every year and meet with startups there. Things I noticed: 1. Incredibly smart people. 2. Behind Silicon Valley on best technology and product building practices by at least 2 years. 3. Great work ethic and social responsibility. 4. Do not have world conquering ambitions - which kinda wo…

I can't edit my previous comment anymore.

The point 2 should have been: >> 2. Behind Silicon Valley on latest technology and product building practices by at least 2 years.

I instead used the word "best" which doesn't really capture what I had meant. This thread also helped me develop a better understanding of my learnings.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#146

Post by soperj »

phil21 wrote: post #111
soperj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but there are cases even in small countries where this didn't happen. Like trademe in New Zealand which was just like ebay. Ebay still hasn't become the major place to do auctions in new zealand.

I think you just defined a moat. A tiny low population country that is one of the most hard to reach major countries in the world kind of proves that point, does it not? Basically no one is competing in NZ because no one cares about the NZ market. It's simply not large enough. Until it is. I do think there is a lot to be said about not trying to build these giant world-eating companies that require you selling your s…

So software is eating the world, except you know, where there are moats?

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#147

Post by m_mueller »

wil421 wrote: post #94
barrkel wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zurich, along with London, has the highest salaries for development in Europe. You may need to work in a finance-related position, but you can make fairly big bucks.

The population of Zurich seems quite small to support a large amount of developers. Everyone here is comparing London, SF, and other places that have over 4 million more people. Zurich also has a high cost of living and well above any US cities.

Zurich can draw from around 1.6M people, which is its metropolitan area with >8.3% people commuting to the center. So yeah, >4M more people is probably underselling how small Zurich is in comparison to London and SF. Nevertheless, it's not a world capital, but with its concentration of highly qualified students and graduates from two of the top universities I think it is quite competitive. Plus it helps that it's not 1.6M people isolated somewhere in a desert, rather it's a continuation of Europe's most densely populated stretch of land (London-Netherlands-Ruhr-SW-Germany-Milano), which helps at getting lots of business/talent in neighboring countries.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#148

Post by llukas »

whatshisface wrote: post #91
llukas wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How they'd reap the benefits if big corps and rich individuals do not pay their share of taxes? SF locals that are priced out of their city would have likely different opinion.

You have to strike a balance. If there's no personal ambition then there's no wealth to redistribute. If there's no fairness then one person takes everything and the whole thing stops. To that end, why shouldn't people fully invest themselves in their role? Expecting CEOs to manage social fairness would be a massive conflict of interest - so we should probably expect other people to keep tabs on that.

CEO's already manage social fairness. Just look at lobbying efforts.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#149

Post by skrebbel »

derriz wrote: post #28

The point that public transport can be more efficient than private does not necessarily reflect public investment although the Swiss do invest in subsidizing transport infrastructure. But what's suprising is that much of the public transport system is owned and operated by private (profit-motivated) companies. I think there are about 10 different companies operating what looks like a unified public transport system i…

> But yes I love that "adjustable work schedules" are the norm here and I think Switzerland is fairly exceptional from what I know in that regard.

Yeah it's cool. It's becoming increasingly common in the Netherlands. It has been common for moms for a long time (somehow it's nearly always the women who work less when they get kids, we're bafflingly traditional that way), but it's slowly beginning to be acceptable elsewhere too.

7 years ago when I worked at a software agency, a colleague who became dad wanted to go to 80%. His bosses wouldn't take it and he actually ended up handing in his resignation before our they realized he was serious. They ended up offering him the job at 80% btw. Now, the same agency has ike 10% of the workforce at 80%. That's a pretty big culture change in relatively little time.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#150

Post by aetherson »

m_mueller wrote: post #142
aetherson wrote: post #52

Y'know, I once was talking to a hiring manager about my potential job. He said something about working 10 hour days and often working weekends. I said, "Great, I don't think this job is for me. I hope you guys do well!" And then I got another job, and I work 8 (maybe sometimes more like 8.5) hour days and no weekends. Outside of genuine "we're on fire" operational catastrophes, which happen like once or twice a year.…

As a Swiss I think you got a healthy attitude. Many Americans seem to think that they have no power over what's forced up them in the workplace. You're selling a valuable, sought after and potentially unique good - your expertise. Don't let BigCorp trample all over you, they need you. Employee retention rate is a very important metric for any good company - if they don't care about that it's a big red flag for any po…

I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that this isn't always true. Amazon's warehouse workers may just not have enough bargaining power to avoid long hours. Walmart's employees likewise.

But software engineers in the bay area are uniquely sought-after and well-compensated individuals in a red-hot market. If you don't want to work long hours, you don't have to, folks. You just have to put that onto the list of things you're willing to negotiate about (even if you only negotiate by looking for another job).

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