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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#141

Post by rbcgerard »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

Except that many (most?) of the people driving around New York city do not live in the city.

We don't even let people from outside the city send their kids to school there.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#142

Post by dnautics »

gamblor956 wrote: post #107
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply. For example, we already charge drivers for the privilege of driving: annual license fees, mandated insurance, gasoline taxes, etc. Congestion fees/taxes are simply an extension of the costs associated with the driving privilege. With respect to schools, we already have a de facto con…

But the "right to an education" doesnt feel like a right in the same way as "the right to free speech" is it "the right to not have your house used as quarters for troops"... What makes that difference?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#143

Post by rbcgerard »

ebikelaw wrote: post #140

This framing of the issue is typical for the mainstream press, however readers should note that this scheme changes nothing about the cost of driving. It only changes who pays, and how. Today everybody pays the costs associated with driving in Manhattan, even though driving in Manhattan is only practiced by a tiny minority of people. Congestion pricing will shift part of that burden to the people who cause it, which…

Also not noted is the portion of people driving in new york city that do not live in new york city...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#144

Post by dnautics »

walshemj wrote: post #120
rayiner wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. We have congestion pricing for schools. Try buying a house near one of the good elementary schools in DC or Chicago.

And gerrymandering of catchment areas id assume as happens in the UK.

That doesn't really happen in the us.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#145

Post by rsync »

gamblor956 wrote: post #107
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply. For example, we already charge drivers for the privilege of driving: annual license fees, mandated insurance, gasoline taxes, etc. Congestion fees/taxes are simply an extension of the costs associated with the driving privilege. With respect to schools, we already have a de facto con…

"In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply."

I find this conversation very interesting - first, the thought provoking notion from your parent that supporters of congestion pricing invoke a "libertarian but only for this" exception that they wouldn't apply to other goods like schools.

Then your (obvious) reply that driving is not a right, but a privilege.

I would counter that while driving is certainly a privilege, the roads themselves are a right, or a public good, comparable to schools. So regardless of what hoops you have to jump through to purchase and license your car, once jumped, the roads are analogous to the schools.

FWIW, I am personally enthusiastic about congestion pricing and have heard nothing but good things about its deployment in London. I would like very much to have it considered here in San Francisco.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#146

Post by jl6 »

dnautics wrote: post #142
gamblor956 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply. For example, we already charge drivers for the privilege of driving: annual license fees, mandated insurance, gasoline taxes, etc. Congestion fees/taxes are simply an extension of the costs associated with the driving privilege. With respect to schools, we already have a de facto con…

But the "right to an education" doesnt feel like a right in the same way as "the right to free speech" is it "the right to not have your house used as quarters for troops"... What makes that difference?

This is the difference between “freedom from” and “freedom to” - two very different concepts of freedom which are disserved by sharing a name.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#147

Post by rbcgerard »

A couple of things to note:

1) is who is actually causing the congestion in NYC - its my understanding that the bulk of the congestion is caused by non-NYC residents

2) a large unaddressed component is parking - the large amount of free parking available, especially to non-residents, creates a distorting subsidy in favor of commuting in many areas.

If you want to read a great book on the broader subject, check out Traffic by Tom Vanderbilt http://tomvanderbilt.com/books/traffic/

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#148

Post by hartator »

rsynnott wrote: post #89
Nav_Panel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

It's amazing how habit-forming driving seems to be. A friend was recently talking about a colleague of his who lives right next to a tram stop and works right next to another stop on the same tram line. 20 minute tram journey, tram every five minutes at peak time. And instead they drive an hour to work at rush hour, because they're from a rural area and are used to driving. Makes no sense to me at all...

I think you have to live in big city and have taken public transportation on a daily basis, to understand the frustations, the dalays, the insecurity, the smell, the crowdness, and the freedom reducing of it.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#149

Post by ebikelaw »

cobookman wrote: post #136
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

The rich aren't effected and the poor are. The poor also can't afford to live near work & public transit. As that comes in at a premium. So this ends up not impacting the rich, but drastically hurts the poor.

These statements have no relationship to reality. In real New York, the only 3% of households in the lowest income quintile own a car. "The poor" are overwhelmingly reliant on walking, biking, buses, subways, and trains. Car ownership rates are strongly correlated with income. The only income bracket for which the bare majority of households own a car is $500000/year or higher, a group of people who can easily afford to pay a few bucks to drive over a bridge. And still, half of those people are sensible enough to see that they don't need a car in New York.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#150

Post by electricslpnsld »

cobookman wrote: post #136
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

The rich aren't effected and the poor are. The poor also can't afford to live near work & public transit. As that comes in at a premium. So this ends up not impacting the rich, but drastically hurts the poor.

> The poor also can't afford to live near work & public transit.

Transit in New York City (and the tristate area as a whole) is very robust -- I seriously doubt most blue collar workers in Manhattan are driving in and parking for work.

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