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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#141

Post by marak830 »

sclangdon wrote: post #82
time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

I had similar thoughts about the meaning of it all. But I didn't question life per se, I questioned the rat race. "Why am I working all day?", "Why do I spend the best parts of the day in an office?", "Why can't I still afford a house even though I make good money?" and questions of that nature. I wasn't as unhappy as you sound, I just didn't see the purpose of it (working) anymore. And so I decided not to do it anym…

I'd like to add onto this point.

Started cheffing at 17, always wanted to code, self taught enough to be qualified as a chef and get a job programming for a fairly large company by 22.

It sucked. As you said, waiting for assignments, no decision making and just another cog in a very large wheel.

Went back to cheffing, I've now travelled all over Australia, lived in Japan for 6 years, met a woman who became my wife and is currently pregnant with our first.

I may work 70+ hours some weeks, but it's fun. I have ran 3 restaurant successfully as an executive chef, now I'm helping a family member with a take away and loving it(haute cuisine food from a take away? Can't plate as I useto but damn it tastes good at an affordable price).

Long story short I'm enjoying life now, seems you need to broaden your horizons work wise more than how life just is.

P.s when I get the urge, I still have a massive side project I work on, so that training in coding, definitely not wasted :-)

I hope you find a better fit for you mate.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#142

Post by jdietrich »

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

There's only one problem with that - it's not true. The author cites no sources for his claim and every source I've found contradicts him. The average number of hours actually worked has slightly declined in the US and significantly declined in Europe over the past few decades. In the broader historical arc, there has been a huge increase in leisure; the average working week throughout the 19th century was well in excess of 60 hours.

Although most working parents report feeling rushed, the majority say that they spend the right amount of time with their children and that parenting responsibilities do not interfere with their career advancement. College-educated whites are, by some margin, the group most likely to report difficulties in balancing work and parental responsibilities.

We might feel like we're increasingly stretched by the demands of work and home, but that perception simply isn't supported by any data I've been able to find. I'm not saying that we've perfected work-life balance, but the overarching trend is substantially positive.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/classes/econ320/orazem/addendum...

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/201...

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#143

Post by patmorgan23 »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #100
throwanem wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, using figures from http://time.com/money/4746795/richest-people-in-the-world/ , if we take the top eight, sum their fortunes (conveniently expressed in billions), and divide by 3.6, we find that a maximally equitable redistribution would allocate, to each of the lucky recipients, the princely sum of $165.38 US. So, I'm going to guess the problem may lie somewhere other than with eight really rich people. But we…

You're not extrapolating. Thats just the top 8 people...Take the sum of the rest of the the global 1% or even 10% and do your math... OH nm, the math has already been done. 280 trillion in global wealth / 6 billion people = 46k per person And the top 10% has 86% percent of it, and the inequality is just growing exponentially. I'm not advocating that wealth should be equally distributed OR that capitalism is all bad..…

Unregulated capitalism is not what's causing the massive inequality we see today. It's the financial and monetary policies. I'm not saying we shouldn't have regulations but the ones we have are centralizing wealth into the biggest corporations. If you look this modern massive growth of inequality doesn't really start until the 1970's after we whet off the gold standard and theirs an uptick in inequality every time the fed decides it needs to pump a bunch of money into the economy.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#144

Post by snarf21 »

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

I agree with you that as automation takes all the jobs, child and elder care will be the work everyone shifts to. I think we should be doing more of this now. Better elder care would help keep people on their right meds and could greatly reduce healthcare costs. Better child "care" could be lots of things but will lead to healthier, smarter, more inquisitive children that will become self supporting and out of bad paths saving society more there as well.

I think one thing that people miss slightly is that some of this is our own fault. Everyone is heavy on the chase (me incl.) of things. We want full meals in a box at our door without the annoyance of doing any work for it. Some of our need for extra work and both adults working comes from our demand that we have a huge house and two new cars and two huge vacations and everyone has an iPhone X and on and on. You have to either work more or spend less and we've generally chosen work more. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that but we need to accept the consequences.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#145

Post by grasshopperpurp »

ciocan42 wrote: post #130
nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I think this view of inequality is misleading. It put emphasis that the top richest should be not rich, or they are not good people. It's a defeating viewpoint that blames other for not having success. When in fact top 10% richest helped much more people along the way than all average combined. And the consequence is being rich. Instead of complaining about inequality (aka making the rich poorer), better to think abo…

But, when those extremely rich are siphoning money away from others (via paying for laws that favor them, exploiting workers, etc.), it absolutely makes sense to say, 'Hey, you don't need all that. You need to share more than you are.'

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#146

Post by amelius »

svantana wrote: post #105
amelius wrote: post #17

I want a world where it is more clear what we should work on. Most startups come up with solutions looking for a problem. Yet if people or companies formulated their problems more directly, we wouldn't have to guess at them. As a consequence, work would be more meaningful and more effective.

What people want, say they want, and how they act are separate things. For example, no one has ever said "I want to spend hundreds of dollars on a pointless mobile game", yet that is what a lot of people end up doing. Conversely, people have plenty of problems that they are not willing to spend (enough) money on solving, at least not until it is socially common to do so. However, I think you're on to something here -…

> What people want, say they want, and how they act are separate things.

Yes, that's exactly what needs to change.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#147

Post by tonyedgecombe »

zimzim wrote: post #29
amelius wrote: post #17

I want a world where it is more clear what we should work on. Most startups come up with solutions looking for a problem. Yet if people or companies formulated their problems more directly, we wouldn't have to guess at them. As a consequence, work would be more meaningful and more effective.

I think its clear, in our world, you should work on what earns you the most.

That's not at all clear to me, I'll never work for an arms manufacturer or casino because those activities don't align with my values.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#148

Post by jacobush »

An viewpoint I want to raise; what about representation? Traditionally, those who work and make money have been in some way represented in the state and the general fabric of life. Those who don't, are generally don't, or rather, someone else represents for them.

I'd all for a universal paycheck, if it weren't for that nagging suspicion that it won't work out like in Star Trek. That the powers that be will decide something altogether unpleasant for the non-working majority.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#149

Post by bbctol »

ciocan42 wrote: post #130
nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I think this view of inequality is misleading. It put emphasis that the top richest should be not rich, or they are not good people. It's a defeating viewpoint that blames other for not having success. When in fact top 10% richest helped much more people along the way than all average combined. And the consequence is being rich. Instead of complaining about inequality (aka making the rich poorer), better to think abo…

I appreciate how much the rich have helped other people along their way to, uh, being Sam Walton's kid.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#150

Post by chasely »

In regards to UBI, I was disturbed by a comment that Jaron Lanier made in the latest Ezra Klein Show [1] (starting at minute 55).

He said that some "known" Silicon Valley folks have expressed that the recent opioid epidemic is a positive because these addicts aren't needed will fall out of the workforce, thereby making the transition to the "world without jobs" easier.

[1] https://www.vox.com/2018/1/16/16897738/jaron-lanier-intervie...

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