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The world's most toxic value system (2001)

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Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#141

Post by throwanem »

leohutson wrote: post #120
taneq wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in the same vein, Liberals show no hesitation in lambasting other people with markedly different values (such as central/southern U.S.) who they lump in as "the same culture" and so consider a valid target.

Haven’t you just done the same thing to liberals?

Not everyone values, or even claims to value, the idea that no culture or value system can be strictly preferable to another. From the perspective where such preferences can exist, there's nothing inconsistent about expressing one.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#142

Post by fellellor »

dhimes wrote: post #137
nradov wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy to objectively measure which cultures are better. In general we can just look at long-term trends in voluntary migration rates by country / state / region (or whatever geographic area aligns with a particular culture). Sure there will be some noise in the data based on natural disasters and legal restrictions but those revealed preferences give a good first approximation.

That's like saying Facebook is good because everybody uses it.

Or Cocaine. If you try it a few times, you won't ever want to stop using.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#143

Post by [deleted] »

jmngomes wrote: post #140
Pyrhos wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe Men and women are equal under the law (in most or all European states) when it comes to labour. Gender inequality in Europe is largely caused by individual choices. This is best demonstrated by the fact that in poorer countries of eastern Europe, women are much more represented in STEM as it's a good way out of poverty, while richer countries (such as Scandinavian) wh…

My point was that gender equality is far from a solved problem in Europe (unlike the previous post claimed in "just like nearly every country in Europe 100 years ago."). To me, what actually sounds ridiculous is to dismiss the problem by saying it "results from choices" when you have evidence (data on the website I linked) that demonstrates that - all things equal (experience, geography, etc) - women globally make le…

[deleted]

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#144

Post by BeetleB »

nradov wrote: post #50
bryananderson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something this author gets that most people (of all political stripes) don’t: whether a culture is “better” than another is not even a well-formed question. We must ask “better at what?” We must define some criteria to measure, and speak in those terms, not in ill-defined terms like “just better”. The author speaks mostly in terms of specific consequences of different value systems. This is not the same thing as decl…

It's pretty easy to objectively measure which cultures are better. In general we can just look at long-term trends in voluntary migration rates by country / state / region (or whatever geographic area aligns with a particular culture). Sure there will be some noise in the data based on natural disasters and legal restrictions but those revealed preferences give a good first approximation.

By that measure, Saudi Arabia and the UAE have the best culture.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#145

Post by psychometry »

bobthechef wrote: post #13
georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

Officially, perhaps, but our coastal bubbles clearly believe that current liberal democratic values and attitudes are superior.

And according to the author of the article, they would be objectively superior than the other predominant culture framework in the U.S., namely the regressive authoritarianism of American conservatism.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#146

Post by corey_moncure »

int_19h wrote: post #91
eric-hu wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rape and genocide and embezzlement also exist for a reason, and make sense to people who think a certain way. > Something this author believes that most people (in our coastal bubbles) don't: that some cultures are better than others. I think you can ask people in coastal bubbles about the rape and genocide cultures of various wars and embezzlement subcultures of various corporations. My money is on them saying tho…

It really depends. I have noticed this same trend recently, whereby things are accepted in other cultures because judging it would be "cultural imperialism". It even got into some previously non-controversial (in liberal circles) topics, like female genital mutilation. Google for "FGM cultural imperialism" for a lot on this.

Any discussion of morality is moot in a society where genital mutilation (of any gender) is tolerated.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#147

Post by weberc2 »

ajmurmann wrote: post #37
bobthechef wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Officially, perhaps, but our coastal bubbles clearly believe that current liberal democratic values and attitudes are superior.

And yet we are hesitant to push out values on people from other cultures. It's a very different dilemma that I think Houellebecq portrayed fabulously in "Submission". Liberals are eager to defend other cultures whose values could hardly new more opposite. It's fascinating really and a tough position. It's admirable and pathetic at the same time and I'm not sure there is a good answer.

I think Scott Alexander touched on this in his "I tolerate everyone but the outgroup" post. He noted that it is relatively easy to get along with those very different from you, particularly when you're uniting against your proximal enemy. He pointed out that even the racist Nazis allied with the Japanese against other Europeans. This isn't tolerance; it's just another way to gain power in a struggle against old foes.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#148

Post by posterboy »

Pyrhos wrote: post #126
jmngomes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Saudi Arabia viewed cleaning as women's work, sure, just like nearly every country in Europe 100 years ago. Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe, actually: https://www.oecd.org/inequality.htm#gender

>Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe Men and women are equal under the law (in most or all European states) when it comes to labour. Gender inequality in Europe is largely caused by individual choices. This is best demonstrated by the fact that in poorer countries of eastern Europe, women are much more represented in STEM as it's a good way out of poverty, while richer countries (such as Scandinavian) wh…

> Also, equating the inequality of women in the middle east with Europe in any way is ridiculous

considering the part of their lifes exactly 18 years after birth.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#149

Post by kazagistar »

xelxebar wrote: post #100
leohutson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those scales are valued differently by different cultures. If I show a conservative American gun crime statistics that we agree on and we agree that are caused by American gun culture, I cannot tell them that American gun culture is inferior, because I just get back "Thats the price of freedom!" Life expectancy, "It's not the years in your life but the life in your years!" GDP is the most hilarious one, because i…

This is a good point. Any particular statistic probably doesn't capture the nuances of human values. I think statistics are quite useful though, since they make it easier to differentiate between "facts we can share" and "personal values". In my experience, a lot of disagreement gets chocked up to opinion differences when in fact it's mainly a failure to unpack beliefs into sets of values and facts. I like to disting…

I'm not sure it's so easy to differentiate, since terminal values are feelings, wishy washy and prone to contradicting each other. I would say that any terminal value can become an intermediate value when you find a contradiction between it and other terminal values. Then, you either find a way to rationalize, ignore the problem, or discover a new terminal value to make the choice and downgrade one of your terminal values to an intermediate, conditional one.

Nonetheless, it's a very useful lens. Take property: many people consider it to be terminal, but I have always seen it as intermediate, a useful tool for accomplishing good things as a society, but not some sacred absolute.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#150

Post by cirgue »

weeksie wrote: post #138
Nomentatus wrote: post #35

It's just not historically true that "northern European culture has been relatively free of the thar mentality." We weren't magically spared these traits. In fact few hundred years ago duels were the mainstay of the official justice system in England. These duels were, literally, trials. I wish I knew more about how we got away from all that.

I can suggest Francis Fukuyama's "Origins of Political Order" for a decent survey of that. Couple it with Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of Our Nature" for a holistic look at violence in human societies in general

Take Fukuyama several grains of salt: he also gave us the thesis that liberal democracy constituted a final resolution of the problem of government, and that history as we understand it has ended.
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