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House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

reuters.com

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Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#141

Post by smileysteve »

stusmall wrote: post #129
smileysteve wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You eliminate deductions that only wealthier people benefit The Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt aren't particularly upper class cars. Neither is the Model 3.

That's why I said wealthier. As a lot of people pointed out new cars, especially electric, are still something bought by people earning more than average. These aren't yachts but they are still target higher end come breaks. Even with the tax breaks that include middle class earners benefit the rich more just by the nature of how deductions work. The rich tax payer would have had this deducted income taxed at a highe…

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-census-median-income-2017-...

Between 2015 and 2016, US median household income rose 3.2% from $57,230 to $59,039, according to a new report released by the U.S. Census Bureau on Tuesday.

So, yes, the median household income is right in line with being able to purchase a 20k vehicle.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#142

Post by dogruck »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #130
dogruck wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations, your parents are relatively wealthy. And, did they buy a new one? MSRP is $30,680: https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/...

New, yes, $30k no. electric utility provided a significant deal. In some states you can apparently get the 2016 model for $15k out the door now.

A 2016 model year car, at the end of 2017, is not “new”. Also, I don’t know what specific electric utility subsidy you’re referring to, but that doesn’t help your argument, in this thread about subsidies, IMO.

What was the out-the-door price for your parent’s 2017 Leaf?

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#143

Post by heypete »

bsder wrote: post #132
rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

> It's all bullshit and I can't stand it anymore... For those of us in Southern California, even if electric cars aren't "carbon neutral", they are still a win for two reasons. 1) Electric cars that are stopped don't burn energy . Now, with the new engines that can turn themselves off and on quickly, that's becoming less of an issue, but there is still some amount of idling in any combustion engine. 2) The pollution…

Plus the fact that as the source of electricity to the grid changes, so too does the cleanliness of all the vehicles.

Sure, things today may be a wash in terms of overall emissions in many areas, but as time goes on and dirty power plants are shut down and cleaner sources brought online, the emissions due to EVs increases.

I'm seriously evaluating buying an electric car like the Bolt (though the cheap interior is a bit of a turn-off for a longer commute) or the Ioniq EV (much nicer, though with less range) since many employers are offering EV charging at work. That'd make my out-of-pocket operating costs basically negligible (other than occasional air filter and tire rotations), which is nice.

I'd love to see the tax credit turned into a point-of-sale reduction in price so more people can benefit, rather than just those with a >$7500 tax bill.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#144

Post by cptskippy »

rukittenme wrote: post #134
cptskippy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is? As of the end of 2016 Tesla's cumulative sales were ~160k units. Nissan alone has produced over 300k of the Leaf. The Bolt exceeded the Model S in sales last month selling just under 3000 units.

Please re-read what I said: > There is a 200k cap on the credit. Meaning if you sell more than 200,000 cars you no longer get the credit. GM sold 10 million ICE cars in 2016. If they were all EV 9,800,000 would not have received the credit.

> The majority of the EV market is high-end, luxury vehicles.

That's false.

> It exclusively benefits low volume, high margin EVs.

That's also false. It benefits high margin vehicles regardless of volume and high margin does not necessarily mean luxury.

> Meaning if you sell more than 200,000 cars you no longer get the credit.

That's also false. Crossing the 200k mark starts a phase out process that takes a year.

So if GM managed to produce and sell 10 million ICE cars in the United States in 1 calendar year, the buyers would all receive a tax credit.

As yet, no manufacturer has reached 200k sales in the United States. Again Nissan leads the pack but has yet to reach the 200k mark.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#145

Post by d1zzy »

danans wrote: post #73

The correct solution here is not to get rid of the credit, but to introduce a phase out as income rises, so middle class car buyers benefit, but wealthy car buyers don't. But that won't happen because the real goal of the proposal is to support the oil and gas industry, not to remove a subsidy to wealthy car buyers. As the article states, even the auto industry has come out against this.

That's what I don't understand in all such proposed policy changes, the discussion is phrased as A or B (with people arguing on either side) when in practice there are many other possibilities, some win-win others giving an acceptable compromise.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#146

Post by Tade0 »

rukittenme wrote: post #72
belltaco wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that is also assuming electric cars (in their current state) are less impactful than fossil fuel vehicles (which isn't the case) Is that true? Got a reference? The problem is that external costs like pollution are not being priced into the cost of ICE vehicles by, say, a pollution tax. This limited subsidy is a backhanded way of doing that. I don't see the issue with rich people benefiting from it, because it's exac…

Yes its true. I do not have a source handy so I'll have to rely on some other HN commenter to help me out. Basically the math works like this: An internal combustion cars cost X tons of carbon to produce. An an EV costs Y tons of carbon to produce. If you need a new car, it will probably require the same amount of carbon to produce an EV as a combustion car. But if you can drive a used car and extend its life 5, 10,…

> 5, 10, 15 years, you save all the carbon of producing the car (which is where the majority of the carbon cost comes from).

False [0].

[0] https://group.renault.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/fluence...

Page 91, Figure 49: "Comparing carbon footprint of EV and ICE vehicles".

Up to 85% of the carbon footprint of a car comes from driving it. Heck, even a typical hybrid during its lifetime saves roughly 150% worth of its weight in CO2 emissions. Taxis easily double that figure.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#147

Post by dogruck »

smileysteve wrote: post #138
dogruck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those are cars for the wealthy. Most people cannot even afford a car. If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. And, if they do buy a new car, they’re probably looking to spend close to $20,000.

> If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. While it's a subsidy; the benefits don't stop at the first purchase. As long as the subsidy continues, prices for used EVs will stay below prices of new EVs.

You make a great point.

I'd like to learn more about that dynamic of used car pricing. Do you have any pointers?

Here are some thoughts I have which might introduce subtleties:

* At some price level, there is a floor on "good condition used car that will safely take you from A to B",

* A used EV also price-competes with all used cars, and perhaps even with new non-EVs.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#148

Post by slowmovintarget »

olympus wrote: post #101
rukittenme wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes its true. I do not have a source handy so I'll have to rely on some other HN commenter to help me out. Basically the math works like this: An internal combustion cars cost X tons of carbon to produce. An an EV costs Y tons of carbon to produce. If you need a new car, it will probably require the same amount of carbon to produce an EV as a combustion car. But if you can drive a used car and extend its life 5, 10,…

Plus there's the environmental impact of strip-mining lithium for the batteries. This impacts hybrids as well as EVs. Owning a Tesla (the current fad) or Prius (the previous fad) has long been about looking like you are environmentally conscious rather than actually being environmentally conscious. True lovers of mother nature ride the bus, train, or ride a bike.

Owning a Prius was about feeling good.

Owning a Tesla, from what I can tell, is about operating a truly excellent vehicle that happens to be electric.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#149

Post by danans »

danans wrote: post #73

The correct solution here is not to get rid of the credit, but to introduce a phase out as income rises, so middle class car buyers benefit, but wealthy car buyers don't. But that won't happen because the real goal of the proposal is to support the oil and gas industry, not to remove a subsidy to wealthy car buyers. As the article states, even the auto industry has come out against this.

In addition to the down-votes, can someone explain to me why they think a high income phase-out of the EV rebate is not preferable to eliminating it altogether, especially if the objection to the rebate is that it subsidizes car purchases by the wealthy?

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#150

Post by r00fus »

rukittenme wrote: post #62
JosephLark wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course things get framed to manipulate opinion. Now, I actually don't mean this with any snark, but how is what you're doing any different? This tax credit applies to plenty of vehicles sold for much less than $100,000.

The majority of the EV market is high-end, luxury vehicles. There is a 200k cap on the credit. Meaning mass market EVs do not receive the credit. It exclusively benefits low volume, high margin EVs. Which are exclusively marketed to the rich.

I just bought an EV that was $31K list for $16K (lease) because I got $7500 off my lease price for the federal tax credit.

Do you consider $31K to be luxury? Or are you saying that because you aren't really familiar with the market?

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