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Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

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Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#141

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

jfaucett wrote: post #124
theprotocol wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have also heard that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use the Allah to refer to God in their religions, but I have not fact-checked it. I can confirm this. We say "Allah." The advent of Islam into the global public awareness has created a lot of confusion about Middle Eastern cultures, e.g. I frequently hear "Allah is the name of the Muslims' God." But it is in fact a more generic word, exactly analogous to "Go…

> I can confirm this. We say "Allah." Is there any difference at all? I was under the impression that all abrahamic religions referenced the same "God". So when a Muslim, Jew, and Christian say "God" are they not all referring to the same deity?

That would depend on the perspective of the follower. In general, each successive religion sees itself as a continuation of the former, but the former does not see its successor as legitimate.

Meaning, if you asked a Christian whether he and a Jewish follow believe in the same god, he would say yes. The Jew would probably say No (I once heard a Jewish man refer to the New Testament as "that appendix").

By the same token, a Muslim would insist that he follows the same god of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. A Christian, however, would say that he does not.

See also the Druze and Bahai'i faiths, which draw upon an extend the Abrahamic faiths.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#143

Post by Geekette »

The discovery seems makes sense given the migratory, raiding and trade patterns between the Arab and Viking worlds in the era discussed. Some settlers and converts (of tradition, religion, etc) will always be found within intersections of 2 or more cultural groups interacting under any pretext. The post also outlines physical evidence, which has/will presumably be re-examined directly by other researchers to verify and extend lines of inquiry.

So, it is mildly amazing to see the mental gymnastics being exhibited by some comments to refute a completely uncontroversial discovery.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#144

Post by olavk »

jfaucett wrote: post #124
theprotocol wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have also heard that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use the Allah to refer to God in their religions, but I have not fact-checked it. I can confirm this. We say "Allah." The advent of Islam into the global public awareness has created a lot of confusion about Middle Eastern cultures, e.g. I frequently hear "Allah is the name of the Muslims' God." But it is in fact a more generic word, exactly analogous to "Go…

> I can confirm this. We say "Allah." Is there any difference at all? I was under the impression that all abrahamic religions referenced the same "God". So when a Muslim, Jew, and Christian say "God" are they not all referring to the same deity?

Yes and no. Their concepts of God have a shared historical origin (Judaism), but they are quite different. For example the Christian God (in mainstream denominations) is a Trinity composed of the father (basically Yahweh), the Son (Jesus) and the holy ghost. This is very different for the concept of God in Islams and Judaism.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#145

Post by hprotagonist »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #141
jfaucett wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can confirm this. We say "Allah." Is there any difference at all? I was under the impression that all abrahamic religions referenced the same "God". So when a Muslim, Jew, and Christian say "God" are they not all referring to the same deity?

That would depend on the perspective of the follower. In general, each successive religion sees itself as a continuation of the former, but the former does not see its successor as legitimate. Meaning, if you asked a Christian whether he and a Jewish follow believe in the same god, he would say yes. The Jew would probably say No (I once heard a Jewish man refer to the New Testament as "that appendix "). By the same t…

>a Muslim would insist that he follows the same god of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. A Christian, however, would say that he does not.

I'm Christian, and I believe that the abrahamic religions worship the same entity. "The lamp is different; the light is the same." Now what? :-)

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#146

Post by theprotocol »

hprotagonist wrote: post #145
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would depend on the perspective of the follower. In general, each successive religion sees itself as a continuation of the former, but the former does not see its successor as legitimate. Meaning, if you asked a Christian whether he and a Jewish follow believe in the same god, he would say yes. The Jew would probably say No (I once heard a Jewish man refer to the New Testament as "that appendix "). By the same t…

>a Muslim would insist that he follows the same god of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. A Christian, however, would say that he does not. I'm Christian, and I believe that the abrahamic religions worship the same entity. "The lamp is different; the light is the same." Now what? :-)

The question is a variant of Theseus's Paradox. If you change some parts of God's character and actions, is it still the same god, or another? It really depends what kind of sameness you're asking about: grammatical, historical, nominal (claimed)... The question is otherwise ambiguous.

You are right nominally; the person you're replying to is right in terms of doctrine. Otherwise, you would say you were Muslim (or some pan-abrahamic variant) and not Christian.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#147

Post by hprotagonist »

theprotocol wrote: post #146
hprotagonist wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a Muslim would insist that he follows the same god of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. A Christian, however, would say that he does not. I'm Christian, and I believe that the abrahamic religions worship the same entity. "The lamp is different; the light is the same." Now what? :-)

The question is a variant of Theseus's Paradox. If you change some parts of God's character and actions, is it still the same god, or another? It really depends what kind of sameness you're asking about: grammatical, historical, nominal (claimed)... The question is otherwise ambiguous. You are right nominally; the person you're replying to is right in terms of doctrine. Otherwise, you would say you were Muslim (or so…

THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL teaches that Muslims "adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humans. They take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even God's inscrutable decrees".

Pope John Paul II has said the fact that Christians and Muslims worship "the One and same God" is a factor that draws the two communities together and lays the basis for love and cooperation between the two communities of believers.

Really? Catholics, Anglicans, most "mainline" Protestant churches are doctrinally copacetic with the notion that jews, muslims and christians alike all worship the god of abraham. This was not always so, of course, but it turns out that ecumenicalism is a pretty smart idea.

To your point about Theseus -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology is germane here. In this way of thinking, definitionally we can only agree on what God isn't, not what it is.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#148

Post by theprotocol »

hprotagonist wrote: post #147
theprotocol wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is a variant of Theseus's Paradox. If you change some parts of God's character and actions, is it still the same god, or another? It really depends what kind of sameness you're asking about: grammatical, historical, nominal (claimed)... The question is otherwise ambiguous. You are right nominally; the person you're replying to is right in terms of doctrine. Otherwise, you would say you were Muslim (or so…

THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL teaches that Muslims "adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humans. They take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even God's inscrutable decrees". Pope John Paul II has said the fact that Christians and Muslims worship "the One and same God" is a factor that draws the two communities together and lays…

>Really? Catholics, Anglicans, most "mainline" Protestant churches are doctrinally copacetic with the notion that jews, muslims and christians alike all worship the god of abraham. This was not always so, of course, but it turns out that ecumenicalism is a pretty smart idea.

Sure, but the criterion for sameness is what matters. I see this as cultural and historical sameness, not doctrinal; the doctrines of the Abrahamic religions certainly do not agree on the fundamentals.

I also don't view it as apophatic, as I acknowledge both positive and negative claims are possible. I just think it comes down to the criteria of "sameness" and so it's ultimately an ambiguous question, and one must specify what is effectively being asked. Depending on the actual question, both your answer and others can work.

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#149

Post by posterboy »

d--b wrote: post #132
_0w8t wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading that Vikings used ships rented in Khazar Khanagate to attack targets in Mediterranean as a form of disguise. They payed the rent with things they captured during the raids.

Thanks, I just googled this. Apparently it's Khaganate rather than Khanagate.

With old names it might be both, I guess, depending on who you ask.

I wonder, has khan any to do with Kahn (ger. ship).

Re: Arabic characters found woven into burial costumes from Viking boat graves

#150

Post by hprotagonist »

theprotocol wrote: post #148
hprotagonist wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL teaches that Muslims "adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humans. They take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even God's inscrutable decrees". Pope John Paul II has said the fact that Christians and Muslims worship "the One and same God" is a factor that draws the two communities together and lays…

>Really? Catholics, Anglicans, most "mainline" Protestant churches are doctrinally copacetic with the notion that jews, muslims and christians alike all worship the god of abraham. This was not always so, of course, but it turns out that ecumenicalism is a pretty smart idea. Sure, but the criterion for sameness is what matters. I see this as cultural and historical sameness, not doctrinal; the doctrines of the Abraha…

OK. So from that angle, though, it's turtles all the way down. Since I am not You, and thus we are not the same, our internal conceptions of _anything_, God included, are going to have some fuzz.

If you're too strict about sameness criteria, it's difficult to agree on what, like, pants are, and we wind up at the relatively trivial solipsism arguments that get boring pretty quick.

If you go back far enough, of course, the doctrines of the abrahamic religions _do_ agree on the fundamentals. "God made stuff, God is on our side, act accordingly." The procession of covenantal relationships throughout history (with noah, abraham, issac, ishmael, jacob, john, jesus, mohammed, etc. etc. ) continually reinterpret what that means for people, but the basics are something everyone can break bread over.

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