Live data from Hacker News

2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

mercurynews.com

141–150 of 236 posts

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The white and Asian population is passing with a high rate. It's not the schools failing then. http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/sjm-l-...

> The white and Asian population is passing with a high rate. It's not the schools failing then. If the schools are only effectively serving White and Asian students, they are failing. If the schools are effectively doing nothing and success is determined mostly by parents educational attainment which just correlates with race, then the schools are still failing. So, no, I think your basis for concluding that the sch…

Schools can't fix parents who don't value education.

I'll mention it has nothing to do with money. Instead it's a cultural values problem.

Jews & Chinese are two groups of people that went from poor to affluent over the course of a few generations. The primary cause of this socio economic change has to do with their value of education.

If they could do it, so can the Hispanic/African Americans.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#142
post #87

It’s not too surprising considering the rising inequality in CA. Wealth is the largest predictor of educational attainment. https://cepa.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/reardon%20whit...

Yes, but wealth is also correlated with aptitude. I'm not saying our system is perfect. Plenty of rich bozos. On the other hand, in a perfect system, to me, it seems that the highest achievers would tend to both: 1. Succeed in school and 2. Acquire wealth.

Well, that Reardon link does state that:

  Finally, the growing income achievement gap does not
  appear to be a result of a growing achievement gap
  between children with highly and less-educated parents.
  Indeed, the relationship between parental education and
  children’s achievement has remained relatively stable
  during the last fifty years, whereas the relationship
  between income and achievement has grown sharply.
By which presumably they mean they performed a multivariate regression, which allowed them to see the impacts of parental education and of parental income in isolation.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#143
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.

Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once (none of which are related or have known each other for a very long time), in a setting that is not their home, for longer periods of time than they are with their families, for the purpose of education and not play. There are transferrable skills, but they're transferrable in the way that making buildings out of LEGO is transferrable to building…

> Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once

Sorry for going off-topic but I come from a small school and I don't understand how it is acceptable for class size to be huge (40+ students in a class is considered acceptable). I mean I get it if the class is led by someone extraordinary like Richard Feynman and everyone wants to be in his lectures but as others have said most teachers are not celebrities.

Plus, I don't think just because someone went through the motions of getting a license thirty years ago and all the certification conferences means that they are decent teachers today.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#144

What is California's score if you get remove all the test scores of illegal immigrants. I'm sure that they drastically drop the scores. Being an ESL student would make school significantly harder. And would also explain he low English skills. And given that most illegals are manual labor and not high skilled jobs, the kids don't have parents who can help their kids with maths.

To add, Asian and white students are ~2x the proficiency rate as black / Latino. http://www.mercurynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/sjm-l-...

Plausible, simple explanations are dismissed while the intelectual 'elite' declare it either a mystery as to why it is happening or create a patchwork of complicated and inadequate explanations that don't stretch to similar phenonemon around the world.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#145
Two notes:

1. I don't see anything about the statistical significance, or the natural fluctuation of the results, i.e. the standard error. Presumably lots of students are measured, and you could argue that your standard error (proportional to 1/sqrt(N)) is tiny, but then, the questions are different every year, so you have some date-specific (not student-specific) error. In other words, just looking at previous years, how much do results vary? And is this year's flatline maybe just a result of measurement error? (In other words: Q: "Why are they flatlining?" A: No reason.)

EDIT to add: well, there is one sentence in the article:

> “not a significant change,” spokeswoman Amber Farinha wrote in an email

2. It's a

> computer adaptive test — meaning as the test progresses, questions become harder or easier depending on the student’s answers

These have problems, in my view. I had a Spanish girl friend that studied for the GRE with me. The verbal section is largely a long vocabulary test, so we studied quite a bit (from the entertaining Princeton Review Word Smart book). Now, often she would know the "complicated" word being explained, as it had Latin roots and was the same in Spanish. However, she wouldn't know the "easy" explanation. (For example, "to lament" (ah, easy, like "lamentablemente, lamentar") was explained as "to mourn" (what?), "arboreal" is "arbóreo" (well, "tree dweller" is easy, too, but you get the idea).)

Bottom line: we did several (actual old) practice exams, timed, and she would consistently score in a certain percentile range (with some variation, of course). Those were good old-fashioned paper tests, though.

However, when she did the actual (adaptive) GRE, she scored much worse than in the practice exams, several standard deviations away. (And before you blame it on nervousness due to real test conditions, note that there was a significant drop only in the verbal part, not analytic or quantitative.)

This appears to me a problem with the testing methodology: when she initially got something wrong, the CAT would give her "easier" questions, preponderantly words with Germanic roots, which she would also get wrong. The "hard" questions involving words with Latin roots, that she'd probably have gotten right, were never displayed to her.

She got into a good school anyway, so it didn't really matter. But in my view, the claim that the CAT is just as good as the longer paper based test is predicated on assuming that test subjects come from the same population. I really wonder whether speakers of Romance languages where systematically disadvantaged by the switch from paper to CAT, and whether ETS (the producer of GRE) did any systematic study on that.

(Note that it is conceivable that some Hispanophones got questions right at the beginning, and then got "harder" questions easier for them, thus getting better results than in the paper based test. If that is the case, it's conceivable that the average scores of both the Anglo- and Hispanophone group lines up with the non-adaptive and adaptive test, but Hispanophones suddenly show a much bigger variance in the adaptive test. Questions questions.)

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#146
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some passing information about charter schools in the article.

Heads up that many charter schools are public. Rocketship (mentioned in the article) is a network of public charter schools that serves primarily low income students, and that's true of many charter schools in the state and across the country.

Success Academy is public, my son is there they are in the absolute top when it comes to math score.

SA was started in Harlem and specialize in taking kids out of bad environments (their homes) and influence them to make an effort.

It's a pretty hardcore school (7.45am - 4.0pm ish) but it definitely works well.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#147
post #69
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy solution: make the tests count for a significant chunk of the students' grades. Or at certain years, require a passing grade on the standardized tests to be promoted to the next grade.

If we're going to have an enforced one-size fits all national curriculum, we can do better than the one we reverse engineer from some stupid standardized test.

Can we?

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised I even have to explain this here but testing for basic language proficiency is not the only thing these types of tests are for. They test elements of writing, grammar, critical analysis, and vocabulary that students are still learning. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any easy way to get example questions - they're all locked behind a login that requires student id. Furthermore, this isn't entirely an ESL…

>scores for African-American students were the lowest, and they're obviously native speakers. This isn't entirely true. There is a great diversity of dialects of English. Schools test and grade students on their abilities with "standard" English. For historical and racist reasons, African American Vernacular English is considered by many to be "stupid English", which puts many African American students at a disadvant…

AAVE is far closer to "standard English" than Bengali or Chinese is. How to native speakers of AAVE do compared to speakers of those languages?

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#149
post #124
post #117

When are we going to come out and admit that our schools are not providing our society with what it needs or wants? For a large chunk of HN, schools served us relatively well. But for a huge chunk of the US, school is just a waste of time. At best, it's free childcare for parents. Preparing everyone to college is overkill (n.b. having a way for everyone who wants to go to college an affordable way to go to a good sch…

I agree with the general sentiment that education needs to be overhauled but I feel that you undervalue literature and history. Hopefully someone comes along that is more qualified than I am to speak about this. There must be better ways to teach algebra and higher math, science, history, literature, etc. But to say they are useless is bonkers to me. Especially at a time where menial jobs are at great risk due to out…

>I agree with the general sentiment that education needs to be overhauled

And that's the core of the problem. Everyone wants change, just not the same change as the next guy.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#150

"California isn’t alone in its stagnating scores and in fact compares favorably with the 12 other states, plus the U.S. Virgin Islands, that administered the same tests last spring from the Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium. Scores decreased in every state, and California’s decline was about the smallest, retired educational testing specialist Douglas McRae said." This is the most important sentence in the artic…

So what's your recommended alternative metric? I don't doubt there is a good case to improve certain standardized tests, but that doesn't mean there isn't a valuable correlation even in a flawed one, nor that it's better to keep moving the goal posts into more subjective territory to explain away bad outcomes.

> So what's your recommended alternative metric?

AFAIK, good test scores correlate well with college success, but don't say much about quality of life beyond that. There might not be a good metric. For a lot of people, one or two great teachers have more of an impact than anything that can be tested for.

Post reply on HN