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Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

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Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#141
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Node.js vs io.js fork changed the way many looked at node and probably changed its growth axis. This is not the same and highlights why a code of conduct focusing on moral issues is not always the best path for a project/language.

Perhaps this is because my coffee rush ended and I'm currently in the post-coffee slump, but I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying this event will/has not change(d) the way many looked at node as well as perhaps its growth axis? Also, when you mention these changes, I'm honestly not familiar with the stats - did they improve or decline? I also don't follow your second paragraph, but that could be simply b…

The first fork drove some away because some felt the ecosystem was fragmenting but many came back after they merged back or understood io.js advantages. Some new developers who might have choosen the language never came back. The growth curve was altered because of those events.

This new split will not drive people away or stop the adoption in the same way. It's may cause some to put there changes in this new fork but this new fork will push changes to the node.js repo and this new fork will keep pulling changes from node.js.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#142
post #114

This story actually helped crystallize why I have been quite so knee jerk against things like Codes of Conduct. The whole point of a Code of Conduct, Homeowner's Association, or anything else which attempts to codify politeness, common sense, respect, etc. is to be used as a bureaucratic bludgeon against someone . And, while those may get put in place to get used against a single egregiously bad person, they then sti…

this. where can i vote a million times?

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#143
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recognized from experience that what I was reading was not a productive response to the situation at hand, but a defensive one. What would a productive response be? I agree that getting unnecessarily mired in drama is counterproductive, but I don't think that these accusations could have been reasonably ignored, nor do I know what Rod could (or should) have done differently.

In real-life, outside of 10,000 word github issues, one should call those you are having problems with and talk about it. That is how you resolve these issues. You show empathy, you show understanding, you take more responsibility that you deserve because you have a strong ego, you focus on the future and how best to achieve joint success, you show some flexibility, you get a mutually beneficial resolution or an agre…

When people defame you in the public, to talk to people in the private don't solve all the problems. The public need to hear from both sides.

You don't like to hear the defense, all right. Just don't try to stop other people from hearing it.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#144
post #133
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a gay male that has been involved with groups run/moderated by the people I mention below. Several high ranking members of Node / NPM are militant queer feminists. If they smell blood in the water, they tend to pounce hard without much regard for due process. Others glom on either in agreement or to make themselves seem progressive.

To give a specific example, I was part of an LGBTQ in Tech Slack group that was admined by several members of the community mentioned above. Their CoC indicated that anyone considered a majority group (white and male being the worst) would automatically be considered at fault in any/all arguments and they would be resolved in favor of the minority. That's the mentality at play here that does not give a space for peop…

[deleted]

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#145
post #131
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, as I see it, an unfortunate side effect of vastly under valuing intent and over valuing individual interpretations and how they make people feel. There needs to be a balance, and when there's not you end up with problems. If that's what happened in this case, it might have resulted in fault being a much more nebulous concept to those people. It's possible he said some things which ended up hurting people's f…

Four people resigned from the whatever-board when Rob was not asked to leave, and have written elsewhere about their repeated interactions with him. The fact that the four of them basically decided they don't wish to work in an org that Rob works in speaks (imo obviously) to him being a relatively unpleasant person to be around. Also, I'm skeptical that four people all are blowing things out of proportion, but who kn…

What you are saying is very reasonable. But...if he did so much to upset so many, it should be easy to come up with concrete and specific examples of conduct that any reasonable person would consider unacceptable.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A code of conduct lets people focus on the community purpose of the project. It lets people know what to expect so they can decide "I disagree, and therefore this is not for me," or "I disagree but I can live with it," or "I agree and can live with it." Codes of conduct are practical tools allowing a community to handle people who decide "I disagree and will stay and not abide by it" and then behave in ways that disr…

I agree with your assessment of what a code of conduct is. That said, just the 'code' is pretty useless without a process to give it life. This is exactly like laws that tell you what you can and cannot do, and the process tells you how you evaluate whether or not the laws have been broken. So on the one hand you have a document that says, if you're part of this community you will be expected to do this, this, and th…

After I wrote my previous comment, I went and looked up the applicable code of conduct. [1] I suspect the relevant passage might be:

  Project maintainers who do not follow or enforce the
  Code of Conduct in good faith may face temporary or 
  permanent repercussions as determined by other members
  of the project's leadership.
As I said, due process is a three way street. And the more I read the statement linked as the story here, the less I think this is about anonymous complaints and the more I think it is related to whether or not actions by a committee member reflect the level of good faith expected in order for the committee to function efficiently.

In some contexts, voting people off the island is sufficient due process. If it is not sufficient here then many people will have to have acted contrary to good faith. I don't see evidence to support that conspiracy theory.

[1]: https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#147
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know that I have the answer, but I do have a guess: Node.js is the only one of those projects whose development is primarily backed by a corporation. Culturally, this sort of drama can only take place in environments where the "shut up and show me the code" hacker ethos is either missing or superceeded by other concerns. When a single company has significant control of the project, its priorities will overri…

Counterexample: Go. Also drama, but nothing on node's scale. And Joyent left the node scene almost entirely years ago, so that's not it. Now node.js is a bunch of smaller companies fighting over their piece of the pie. The Joyent drama was also because other young companies saw potential profits if they unseated the incumbent. I suspect the best thing Joyent ever did was leave the scene -- they spent several years nu…

I must have missed most of the Joyent drama then, because your description of it sounds bigger than I remember. Again, I don't follow Node closely enough to be sure.

Go is a good counter example, and it also doesn't have the corporate politics despite being backed mostly by a single corporation. I was thinking that my guess was probably missing something; the behind the scenes struggle for control between multiple companies might be it.

Is there a way to quantify this "corporate politics" thing in Node and compare it to other communities with drama?

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your assessment of what a code of conduct is. That said, just the 'code' is pretty useless without a process to give it life. This is exactly like laws that tell you what you can and cannot do, and the process tells you how you evaluate whether or not the laws have been broken. So on the one hand you have a document that says, if you're part of this community you will be expected to do this, this, and th…

After I wrote my previous comment, I went and looked up the applicable code of conduct. [1] I suspect the relevant passage might be: Project maintainers who do not follow or enforce the Code of Conduct in good faith may face temporary or permanent repercussions as determined by other members of the project's leadership. As I said, due process is a three way street. And the more I read the statement linked as the stor…

Thanks for adding this: I don't see evidence to support that conspiracy theory.

I see you are concerned with other comments here and elsewhere arguing a conspiracy of some sort to get the author banned. I have no opinion one way or the other on that specific accusation. I also don't think it is germane to my claims in this thread.

I was remarking that "Due Process" the specific legal term associated with the how the legal system deals with accusations, was designed to avoid the situation the author writes about where he asserts he was not told who is accusers were, what he was accused of, or given an opportunity to refute those accusations. This works because it removes information asymmetry that can be exploited by the attacker or the attacked. An recent example of how this can be exploited is the story of a venture capitalist who was accused of sexual harassment anonymously by someone who turned out to be a competitor[1].

In a system where, as part of the process, an accuser and accused are made aware of the real identities of each other this would never has passed the first examination.

If such a process were in place in this particular case, and the code of conduct violation was the one you cited, then the email to the author would have said

   "These {insert identities} have accused you of failing 
    to enforce the code of conduct elements {identified paragraphs}
    in the following situations {links to exchanges between author
    and community}. We would like to hear your side of this 
    before we render a judgement." 
And they would get back the authors point of view, then they might ask the accuser or the author for more information, and then they would render some judgement and an explanation of why they ruled the way they did so that in the future people would either recognize that it wasn't an issue or that it was and to not do it.

Processes are like programs or math proofs, if you do each of the steps in the right order you get the right answer regardless of the intent or opinion of the people carrying out the process.

[1] http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/25/lawsuit-sexual-harassm...

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#150
The Node community seems to have more issues like this than others. This feels similar to the Nodevember drama where Douglas Crockford was uninvited to speak because a small group of people felt uncomfortable. What that community needs to understand is that speaking takes a lot of work and guts to do. Professionals are busy people and it’s a privilege to hear experts present. Same goes for contributing time and expertise to open source projects. If it becomes common to force people out for perceived wrong think than all that will be left are codes of conducts instead of codes of systems.
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