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Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

uanews.arizona.edu

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Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#141

Post by BuckRogers »

hueving wrote: post #63
BuckRogers wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why whenever I speak to someone and they have a strong opinion I like to ask them how many books they've read on that subject. It's almost always zero. You can pretty much instantly discard anyone like that as it's a decent baseline litmus test. If you really cared about something, you would read at least one if not multiple books on the subject. Anything less is just laziness and someone who wants to get an e…

That's a pretty pathetic litmus test. I would rather engage someone who has read individual research papers, blogs from researchers, etc than books. Nearly all of the best programmers I have met have never read a book on the languages in which they are experts. Books are not conducive to learning about a whole field, they are just a way for authors to lecture you on their world view.

I agree, it is a pathetic litmus test. It still sounds like a very high bar for the majority of people though, right. Good luck finding people who have even read one book on a subject they're so angry about they'd punch you over it. It really demonstrates interest, not expertise, and potentially not even a well rounded opinion as you stated.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#142

Post by abalone »

thethirdone wrote: post #13
cooper12 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit that link you shared was so frustrating to read. To think of all the productive things a great intellectual like Chomsky could be doing with his time. Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). He even hints at OP's "intentional ignorance" many times to…

> Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. In many places, he does not respond to the probing questions asked of him at all (this is assuming the poster didn't add them in afterwards) instead opting to insult…

That's not really accurate. Chomsky's "key statement" at the very beginning of the thread refers to studies that have demonstrated "white supremacy that is more rampant here even than it was in apartheid South Africa." That, despite the experience of racism being a naked fact that anyone with eyes can see should they make a modicum of effort to break out of their "white racist cocoon". But these studies would presumably detail how white supremacy works, for those that need it explained.

He implies that these studies are readily available, alongside "a huge literature of professional criminology," for anyone willing to look. What he's facing here is an interlocutor that isn't interested in doing the research or following logic, just citing right-wing op-eds.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#143

Post by [deleted] »

y0ssar1an wrote: post #132
balance_factor wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Six years ago Chomsky wrote an open letter that said actions Hugo Chavez were taking were an "assault on democracy". How exactly is that "torturing the data to make Hugo Chavez sound like a good leader"? When Chavez was elected and freed the oil money of Venezuela from the hands of a small, corrupt, European-descendant aristocracy, being shared with poor and working class Venezuelans of all races, Chomsky was enthusi…

That's a fair point, but this more recent interview from 2013 shows Chomsky's real opinion of Chavez. He's defensive about the human rights abuses, and his overall tone is one of praise for the "liberator" of Latin America. https://youtu.be/M6BiNppcnaI

[deleted]

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#144

Post by BuckRogers »

hindsightbias wrote: post #134
nindalf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made my mind about Nazism, because it strikes me as an abominable philosophy. I haven't read any books about it though. Would you dismiss anything I said about it until I read Mein Kampf? Most people have only read a handful of books. If they were limited to expressing their views on those topics, there wouldn't be very much said about anything in society. I'm not sure society would benefit from that.

Well, Godwin is Godwin. I think a better example would be Marx's Das Kapital. I probably wouldn't waste any time talking to someone about 20th century political & economic history/theory who dismisses it out of hand. And I can tell you the vast majority of Americans will dismiss it. The standard response to "I've read it" is: "What, you're a commie?"

That's a very interesting anecdote. About 15 years ago I went to my local library and checked out every book by Marx that I could get. One of the librarians said "why would you want to read THAT". She looked actively disgusted.

I'm not a Marxist, but I have read Marx and Engels. If I had to be pidgeonholed into any political ideology that would be the vein I'd choose. I probably most appreciate Peter Joseph from the Zeitgeist Movement, which is similar and derided as "Communism with robots". But at least I've read a few treatises on the subject. I also went to Moscow about a decade ago, simply because I didn't want to form a strong opinion about a world power that everyone thinks they know about- without actually at least stepping foot on their soil myself.

In sum, people need to put their mind where their mouth is.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#145

Post by abalone »

fatjokes wrote: post #87
otalp wrote: post #2

He's 88, still mentally very sharp and probably moved there for the weather(aside from the great department filled with old students). His work ethic is incredible, he spends 5 hours a day responding to emails from the public- I've received a detailed response every time I've sent one. The amount of time he spends engaging with even terribly misinformed(but well meaning) people is truly astounding, and unparalleled a…

Heh, reading his sharp responses you forget his age. Then you see him use dated terms like 'Orientals' and remember :).

You misunderstand. He used the term in the context of referring to 19th century racists. Full quote:

"In the 19th century, the US had emigration officials helping drive the native population off their lands, and immigration officials in Europe trying to bring in white settlers to replace them. White. Orientals were entirely excluded."

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#146

Post by BuckRogers »

yorwba wrote: post #31
BuckRogers wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why whenever I speak to someone and they have a strong opinion I like to ask them how many books they've read on that subject. It's almost always zero. You can pretty much instantly discard anyone like that as it's a decent baseline litmus test. If you really cared about something, you would read at least one if not multiple books on the subject. Anything less is just laziness and someone who wants to get an e…

> If you really cared about something, you would read at least one if not multiple books on the subject. I'm not sure how true that is anymore. If by "book" you mean "monothematic long-form treatise by a small number of authors" then I have read essentially zero books in the past year, although I have done a great deal of reading otherwise. Research papers, magazines, blog posts, Wikipedia articles, cherry-picked sin…

It probably doesn't apply to you, or a few others in the minority. If you're intelligent enough to be able to identify credible sources vs those which are not, then you're probably better off. I offered that up as a low-bar. That said, usually if you're truly into a given subject you'll eventually find a book by someone that you really want to read.

Example for me other than Marx & Engels that I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, is my passing interest in European Celts. I enjoy reading about Iron Age Europe, so I've had a hard time resisting books on the subject. Caesar's Druids by Miranda Aldhouse-Green was a recent book that I read and something I couldn't pass up. While I accept your statements and agree, I still think the same will be for you if you're truly serious about a given subject.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#147

Post by etplayer »

valuearb wrote: post #124
huac wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the US isn't a capitalist nation" - ok buddy

In 2017, 36% of the US GDP is government spending, including federal, state and local governments. Of the remainder, most is highly regulated giving government specific controls over how companies can speak, hire, employ, operate, manufacture, and how their ownership is determined and profits distributed. At what level of government control over the economy do you draw the line between socialism and capitalism? It ca…

>At what level of government control over the economy do you draw the line between socialism and capitalism?

No level, where do you get this idea that Socialism and capitalism exist on a scale between government control over the economy and no control over the economy? I can't imagine what would arouse such an opinion. Marx never said "Socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does, the more Socialist it is". That's complete rubbish.

>It can't be 100%, that's called communism.

No, it's not. Communism, like other anarhcist ideologies, has no "government control", and this is painfully obvious by reading Marx's discussion on the self-regulating sphere of activity.

And this is of course ignoring the fact that in Marx's time, Socialism and Communism had the same meaning. Their distinction is almost entirely a Leninist one.

Here's the thing: Socialism isn't about government control over a capitalist economy, and it's not about acting like a capitalist but on a global scale. That's called state capitalism.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#148

Post by [deleted] »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #129
swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this reddit comment in here sums up my thoughts on reading that random kid post "Dear mr. chomsky i realize you've been an MIT professor for 60 years. you've made significant contributions to many fields of studies including linguistics, history, computer science, and philosophy and you've debated with towering figures such as Michel Foucault, Hannah Arendt, Jean Piaget, etc... now can you please allow me to…

For anyone interested to read on the subject of "misguided intellectual egalitarianism": "The Death of Expertise: The Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why it Matters" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYCDVHH Of course, there are some older well known books touching on this like Hofstadter, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#149

Post by etplayer »

eighthnate wrote: post #95
ant6n wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is not a socialist country.

They are more socialist than capitalist. Besides, there is no pure socialist or capitalist society on earth. Using that logic, the US isn't a capitalist nation and venezuela isn't a socialist nation. And the guy's assertion that venezuela is suffereing because of state socialism is pointless. China and venezuela are both socialist countries. You can't just decide to accept one because it fits into your worldview and…

>Besides, there is no pure socialist or capitalist society on earth.

Yes there is. All nations on earth adhere to the capitalist mode of production, entailing the following: primacy of wage labour, capital accumulation by the owners of the means of production, majority capitalist control over the means of production, the existence of private property and the fact that commodities (which have use and exchange value) are produced rather than simple good (which have only use value).

This is what Marxists mean when they talk about the difference between capitalism and Socialism.

>China and venezuela are both socialist countries.

Why? What precisely makes them socialist, and by whose definition? North Korea calls itself "democratic".

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#150

Post by thethirdone »

sidlls wrote: post #108
thethirdone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. In many places, he does not respond to the probing questions asked of him at all (this is assuming the poster didn't add them in afterwards) instead opting to insult…

The example questions you included are just not even wrong and are themselves loaded with racism. It would take hours or days of remedial education just to get the person asking them up to speed on the history and circumstances around black Americans' experiences to the point where the racism in his questions could be addressed. And that assumes he's honestly curious and not just spouting racism disguised as a questi…

> The example questions you included are just not even wrong and are themselves loaded with racism.

What about the first question, "By what mechanism do white supremacist elements impose American black culture on the American black community today?", is loaded with racism? It is asking for how white supremacy directly affects black culture. I do not see how even the assertion "There is not a mechanism by which white supremacist elements impose American black culture on the American black community today." instead is racist. It may not be an educated viewpoint, but I do not see it as racist.

Besides whether the question is racist, a good answer to the question could be very illuminating. You could probably fill a book responding to that question.

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