To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software • Hacker News Board

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#141

Post by blackkettle » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #132

eksemplar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could do some secure voting software if all your citizens had a secure two factor signature and you used block chain. I'm not sure why you would do it in a non-corrupt country though.

And how do you prove that all of those citizens exist? We have a secure, provable, relatively cheap method right now: Paper ballots and public observers at elections. Compared to the stakes the cost is peanuts.

Exactly, and the simple, physically decentralized, distributed, and somewhat resource/time intensive aspects of paper-based balloting are all great checks against easy attacks.

The fact that virtually anyone both capable and eligible to vote is also capable of understanding the voting process, as well as what kinds of physical acts are signs of fraud means that many more people can evaluate the process, and determine - even just by looking - whether something fishy is going on at their voting station.

Your average voter will be easily convinced that he "doesn't know enough to judge" whether something is fishy with his voting machine, even if something seems to be clearly malfunctioning; "oh don't worry sir, the print out might be wrong, but your vote was definitely counted correctly internally".

The rise of any form of electronic voting is really troubling - and don't even get started on anonymity concerns...

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#142

Post by 3131s » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

Just have the electronic system return a clearly labeled ballot to the voter, which would be verified and turned in before leaving. A physical count can be used to confirm the electronic count or vice-versa (physical counting has vulnerabilities too).

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#143

Post by wu-ikkyu » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #135

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The electronically run global financial system is not free of devastating vulnerabilities, and yet it "works"

So, what is your point? The financial system is actually going to collapse, and that's not a problem? Or the vulnerabilities aren't actually devastating, just bad? Or what?

That many technologists are being hypocritical by wanting to prohibit electronic voting because of "security concerns" while at the same time developing and using other institutional systems with equal or greater attack surfaces and consequences.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#144

Post by Zigurd » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

First, you have to understand the problem:

1. You don't need to commit widespread election fraud to throw an election if you can predict where a small fraud will matter.

2. Not all election fraud is a miscount of ballots. Throwing out minorities' registrations is also election fraud, and you can't fight that with more-reliable ballots.

3. The best solution might not be a technology solution. Paper ballots make it hard to scale fraud. But that's not enough, since fraud doesn't always need to scale.

4. Early voting and absentee voting need to be taken into considerations and are a growing part of voting in the US.

5. If software systems are used in voting, tallying, or anything connected to election results, the systems should be open to inspection and to pen testing.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#145

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #143

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what is your point? The financial system is actually going to collapse, and that's not a problem? Or the vulnerabilities aren't actually devastating, just bad? Or what?

That many technologists are being hypocritical by wanting to prohibit electronic voting because of "security concerns" while at the same time developing and using other institutional systems with equal or greater attack surfaces and consequences.

Well, OK, that makes sense. Though I get the sense that the overlap might be limited.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#146

Post by roywiggins » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #111

wiz21c wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I also agree with the people who point out that inserting electronic systems destroys that transparency (too easy to hack, too complex for general population to inspect). Spot on. Democratic process means "owned by people". So the voting system must be able to be run in the hands of the people. Hence the necessity to have it in the form of a simple technology such as pen/paper. Moreover, having the votes counted…

> having the votes counted in some hours instead of a night doesn't make a big difference, considering the time that is needed for example, to form a government Yeah, in the US it takes 2 months to get the new President actually in the White House, no matter how quick votes are counted. They can easily spare a day or two to count everything three times over, the country will not go to the dogs in the meanwhile. Ironi…

And we didn't know the result of the 2000 election until December (when Bush v Gore was decided) so the country isn't going to descend into anarchy if counting takes an orderly couple of days.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#147

Post by JshWright » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

3131s wrote: post #142

blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

Just have the electronic system return a clearly labeled ballot to the voter, which would be verified and turned in before leaving. A physical count can be used to confirm the electronic count or vice-versa (physical counting has vulnerabilities too).

New York uses the reverse of that. You fill out a paper ballot, which then gets fed into a machine for counting. A random sample (of sufficient size) of the paper ballots are then counted to verify the electronic results.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#148

Post by huhlig » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

scierama wrote: post #136

"The blockchain is an undeniably ingenious invention – the brainchild of a person or group of people known by the pseudonym, Satoshi Nakamoto." It isn't even definitively known who invented blockchain, it is behind the pyramid scheme known as bitcoin and no, no way should that ever be used in voting system computers.

If you consider Bitcoin a pyramid scheme I would love to hear your treatise on fiat currency, fractional reserve banking, and capitalism in general.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#149

Post by cmiles74 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #93

cmiles74 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this make a lot of sense. I'm not sure a checksumming method that can indicate tampering can be devised, but my hope would be that by making the data publicly available for every stage of the processing pipeline, auditors or interested parties might be able to detect fraud.

But the data is worthless if you cannot trust the way is has been acquired.

I'm not sure there's a way that a skeptical person can ever trust that data, short of physically handling each piece of paper and manually summing up the totals. People are as much of a black box as any software.

I suppose the only benefit of people is that they are more difficult to coordinate.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#150

Post by 5trokerac3 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #125

blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

I think you could do some secure voting software if all your citizens had a secure two factor signature and you used block chain. I'm not sure why you would do it in a non-corrupt country though.

There is no such thing as a non-corrupt country.