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Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

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Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#141

Great article. A few years ago (at a previous job) I took a sick day for "sanity", but told them I wasn't feeling well. I felt guilty about doing it. I think part of it is the association of sick leave with externally visible medical issues, and the corresponding "straightforward" medical verification. In other words, if you have a temperature or are vomiting, that's obvious. Many infections or physical injury can be…

I felt guilty about doing it. You shouldn't feel guilty at all. They should feel guilty for making you need to take that day off. Your workplace should be a refuge, where you charge your batteries and build sanity. Not a constant drain on those resources.

Your workplace should be a refuge, where you charge your batteries and build sanity.

That's a refreshing perspective, I haven't thought about it like this. Indeed, when you're solving tough problems, you'd better concentrate at the private office (which is nowhere to be found, so work from home it is), and the workplace is the place where you go to discuss your difficulties with colleagues to broaden your perspective, and ask senior ones for practical advice. Makes perfect sense.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A doctor administered evaluation or a patient self-survey is just as objective as any other test. These tests take a measurement and based on peer-reviewed statistical studies make a determination as to whether or not the measurement falls into a pathological range. This is exactly the same as measuring blood pressure or cholesterol. You read a number and decide if there is a statistically valid correlation between t…

>patient self-survey is just as objective as any other test. Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

What is the difference between being depressed and "feeling" depressed?

What is the difference between being schizophrenic and having the "opinion" that Satan speaks to you through your neighbor's cat?

Mental illness is defined by what a person feels and believes.

What you feel and believe is subjective but you can objectively establish that a particular cluster of subjective feelings and beliefs is abnormal vis-a-vis a populate.

Then when you ask people the same questions and their cluster of responses fits the abnormal definition you can objectively say that they have a mental illness.

The objectivity does not come from the doctor observations or patient self-survey, it comes from the study that created the questions and proved that a certain score or cluster of responses is statistically abnormal.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#143
post #26

It's not controversial, there's even a term for it - airing dirty laundry. People don't talk about it because they don't want to all of a sudden be treated differently because 'mental health', and now people around you are walking on egg-shells or being fake supportive. Why can't it just be a personality thing - some people need time alone more than others, for whatever reason that is. When you start labelling it men…

> Why can't it just be a personality thing... For the same reason a cold isn't "just my body." Just like a virus can put your body in a bad state, so too can various stimuli to your mind. You don't just chalk it up to "how things are", you attempt to resolve it. For a cold, your body does that on it's own and you mostly just wait it out. Mental health issues can be similar (I'm just feeling off today), or they might…

I agree with everything you're saying. I think you summarized it very well with

> I suppose you could shorten it to "I need a sick day" if knowing any more information is too much

It's not at all unreasonable to say you need a couple of days off and say it's for personal reasons, and leave it at that. By providing personal information that's going to make other people see you in a lesser light, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

You can muse all you want about society being more accepting of this that and the other - the time and place you do and say things matters. A lot! When you're in a position of power - go ahead and make people under you feel safe to talk about mental health etc. Don't assume other people are interested in accommodating your needs when you're a relatively replaceable employee.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#145
I don't understand. Why isn't it standard practice to just issue a set of "personal days" without regard to "sickness", "leisure", or "mental sanity"? My company switched to this a couple of years ago and doesn't require an explanation. They are your days off, take them as you see fit.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#146
post #145

I don't understand. Why isn't it standard practice to just issue a set of "personal days" without regard to "sickness", "leisure", or "mental sanity"? My company switched to this a couple of years ago and doesn't require an explanation. They are your days off, take them as you see fit.

Isn't that called "holidays"? We have one month every year by law here. But of course you have to negotiate when they are with your employer.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#147
post #20

First hand experience. As a founder it's terrifying to let people know that you are experiencing debilitating levels of burnout, anxiety and moderate depression that prevent you from being effective at your job. There are days when you're just sitting there staring at your screen for 10 hours hoping nobody can tell you're checked out. You put on a smile, try to follow the usual routine as a robot, and secretly go to…

As a founder you could also set a positive example and say "I can't get anything done today" and take a break. Fixed working hours are one of the biggest problems in a profession like software engineering. On some days you just can't get anything done. It would be better to just take the day off and come back fresh the next day instead of sitting around and pretending that you are working.

Aaaand... over here we just received formal notice (very informally worded) that mandates us to work for certain durations and be present at specified times, and required to log this by any means we see fit, full log being due to management each month.

This kind of attitude just sends the wrong message, devaluates everyone's work by subsuming it to mere tallies, and just outright crosses everyone, obliterating trust and turning it into a culture of fear. Turns out quite a bunch of us aren't efficient at all before 10AM because that's how our circadian rhythm is, yet it's viewed as laziness to come mere five minutes late as we're supposed to show up at least an hour earlier, preferably two. Net result, actual work is hardly done during this forced downtime, and reluctantly so afterwards. Everyone is just pretending to comply in order to bridge the impedance mismatch. As a result, everyone gets increasingly tired fighting their natural rhythm, and slowly growing bitter with each day passing as we witness ourselves wasting everyone's time.

Software development and engineering is a highly mental, creative process. We are not laying bricks 8 hours a day, we have to find and build new solutions to new problems, one by one. This process cannot be shifted, sliced, rearranged at will because it's not mindless, numbing, robot work.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#148
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where it gets tricky. Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? And is that even material to the decision to hire you or not? No one really cares why you act like that, they simply care that you do. I'm going to say it's entirely on you to present yourself in a positive light at work, and I honestly think your ex-manager was doing you a soli…

> Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? I'm always unsure. These days, I'm generally a pretty positive guy but I know I've struggled in the past. On this particular team I was definitely not the biggest asshole. In fact, after this manager left, the biggest asshole was fired pretty much based on the fact that the new managers weren't willing to…

> Really mature, that guy is.

This is really the only issue I have. Maybe your manager sucked, I don't know. But this specific story is absolutely the opposite. He put himself out on the line (as you say) and was honest with you. Typical folks would simply not talk to you whatsoever, but have the same reasoning.

Maybe I'm strange, but I'd far prefer the latter.

Story time. My best hire I've made was an employee with a speech impediment. This job was for a night shift as a sysadmin/support role, and that required answering the phones at 2am when customers called. Customers don't call at 2am to have a friendly chat - so those calls typically were high stress, and it really caused his speech to falter quite a bit.

I could have easily simply bounced him on the phone interview, since we were a tiny startup at the time and one wrong hire had the potential to sink us. I had other livelihoods to think of - not just the "legal" situation.

So what I did was I asked the guy back for a second informal interview and laid my cards out on the table. He could have gotten up right then, left, and immediately sued me. But he didn't - we had a productive talk about it, and due to that talk (and other self-starting qualities he had shown) he got the job.

I've now worked with him for over 10 years, through thick and thin and switching companies.

If I had followed your advice here - as the hiring manager I would have simply round-filed the resume due to the potential issues, and went on with my day. I took the risk, and it worked out. I don't believe what I did should have been punishable by death of my company - but it absolutely was if that potential hire had been ethically challenged. I also started the career of someone who was having challenges finding work elsewhere due to "unknown reasons" - aka people seeing his impairment and silently crossing him off the candidate list. Due to the insane legal framework around this stuff, very few companies will take risks like I did any longer.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#149
Sure if people like you you can get away with even a month of being 'sick' but its really depends on the person.

At a company i worked there was a guy who did that. He got away with it but he was a very senior programmer.

If i tried this i would have to worry about them using it as grounds for a firing.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#150
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medically speaking a mental illness is no different than a physical illness. Mental illness does not have to be severe just as physical illness does not have to be severe. Sick leave policies typically only require a doctors note/visit if you are absent for multiple days. Taking a single day off for mild mental illness, something like elevated stress levels causing anxiety that interrupts your sleep, seems perfectly…

> Medically speaking a mental illness is no different than a physical illness. I'm sympathetic, but don't make the discussion worse by throwing falsehoods like this around. Besides the fact expressed by others that physically illness is more diagnosable, you typically don't get mentally ill from being in proximity to a mentally ill person. (At least, I never have.) Physical illness is a different situation. That's wh…

If I recall correctly, Morgellon's Disease is a mental illness that spreads via social interactions with an affected person, or journalism featuring such a person.

The disease itself is a delusion, regarding microscopic fibers in the skin. Sufficiently impressionable people simply hear about it, convince themselves that they have it, then they go on to try to convince others that it is a physical ailment rather than a mental illness.

If you are politically incorrect enough to classify religions as mental illnesses, many of those appear to be contagious as well.

But on a smaller scale, workplace morale is definitely infectious. If someone is having a particularly stressful day, they may be rude to someone else, who then feels worse as a result, and may propagate that to yet another co-worker. Of particular interest is that such transmission need not take place in person. A person with a common cold could work from home to keep everyone else from catching it, but someone with malaise or anxiety could transmit that via any medium that can include emotional undertone, such as a voice or video call.

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