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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#141

Post by pm90 »

hencq wrote: post #107
caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Very interesting. It touches on something I've been thinking about lately. The book Why Nations Fail [1][2] makes an argument very similar to yours that there are two factors that determine (economic) success of a nation: 1) inclusive economic systems and 2) inclusive political systems. They argue that these can form a virtuous cycle where they enhance themselves. However, if nations don't have inclusive systems, the…

Yes this is exactly correct. Which is why rising income inequality is hugely bad news for the US. But short of going back to higher taxation, I don't see the situation improving for the US. The rich will Marshall all their significant resources to fight tax increases. Just see the amount of money and effort Koch brothers have put into corrupting the system! It is deeply disturbing.

Also, titans of economy should not be given the reins of running the country, no matter how qualified they might be. They already have a lot of power. In poorer countries, political ascendants are shot dead. In the US, you have attack ads, smear campaigns etc.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#142

Post by paradite »

holydude wrote: post #17

Ofc China does not want HK to be free. China found out how to get "rich" without losing control. They want exactly the opposite of what makes HK HK. It's just sad that many strong economies feel like they need / want the growth based on chinese consumption and trade and are feeding this undemocratic behemoth. What is scary is that China is actively promoting expansion by resettling ethnic han chinese.

Uhm... I think you forgot that ethnic han Chinese are human beings like you, capable of reasoning and driven by self-interest.

I don't appreciate being treated as as a mere weapon.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#143

Post by CobrastanJorji »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

That's really interesting; thanks for sharing.

But based on what you say, that sounds exactly like the narrative of authoritarianism vs. democracy. You have a bunch of elites with no responsibility that are tremendously disliked in power. In a democracy, they'd (theoretically) fear losing an election to a populist. Heck, even if they were regular despots, they'd be at least marginally afraid of revolution. But the elites in Hong Kong are installed by China; they have no fear of even a revolution.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#144

Post by ue_ »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #62
princetontiger wrote: post #35

I love both these comments. China doesn't have private ownership. it's still communist, right?

It's funny to see the obviously pro-CCCP replies to you here. It demonstrates my point exactly. No, you don't have ownership. You only rent the land for 70 years, after which it returns to the government. You can 'sell your property' to somone else, at which point the 70-year lease on the land is reset for them to 0.

This is nonsense. A state can privately own land, and you need to own capital in order to lease it in the first place. And since when does renting not count as a form of ownership, albeit with restrictions? You're not allowed to do certain things in the US with your land, does that mean that the US has no private ownership?

I do not wish to defend the CCP, but Communism is more than just "no private property", and you're wrong on the point on private property, at least coming from the Marxian sense which the Communists mean.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#145

Post by ue_ »

ask-the-dust wrote: post #84
and0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: - Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history. - The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently. - Founding documents rarely mean anything when i…

You have played the Racist Card. @Princetontiger must now make a d20 saving roll. If he fails to roll 19 or 20, his argument is invalidated. You will accumulate 5 Social Justice Warrior points for use of the Racist Card.

There's no need to be snarky, it's almost as if you're reading comments just to find something like this to comment on. The "racism card" you refer to is when an opponent will use a word like "racist" to shut down his opponent. That's not what's happening here, and further, it's just a generic adhom.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#146

Post by paradite »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

I think it should be justifiable for me to downvote this on the grounds of uncivil remarks against the entire nationality. However, I am not going to do so because I acknowledge that this is a common mind sight of a Westerner and it is not really you fault to think that way.

Let's keep the discussion civil and hopefully we all can get something out of this.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#147

Post by bufordsharkley »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

A HK resident recommended to me Alice Poon's "Land and the Ruling Class in Hong Kong" to understand the malfunction in land development that this sort of cronyism delivers; I found it a worthwhile read, and readily recommend it to others.

[0] http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2948872-land-and-the-ruli...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#148

Post by ue_ »

and0 wrote: post #44
princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

No: - Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history. - The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently. - Founding documents rarely mean anything when i…

>The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations.

This is certainly true. I will note that in 2009 Parliament demonstrated that it has no problem with making illegal mere possession of certain drawings (even if you drew them yourself from your imagination), and there have been proposals by MPs to illegalise (with penalty of prison) possession of certain text.

>I'd argue freedom has more to do with economic prosperity

What kind of economic prosperity? Some (such as Proudhon) would argue that freedom is in fact impossible under a system which advances private ownership.

>Founding documents rarely mean anything when it comes to actual law.

This is false; the law which I mentioned the UK making above was implemented in the US and stricken down by the Supreme Court on constitutional basis.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#149

Post by justicezyx »

uiri wrote: post #124
sho wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed. In my opinion it will actually get better in time. Th…

Kent State, Dresden and dronings are well-known, if not in the US, then in Canada (where I'm from). The first one is mainly from the protest song by Neil Young which may be played more often here due to Canadian content requirements. Of course, Canada has its own sordid moments in history... Residential schools, Oka & Ipperwash crises, Japanese internment during WW2. I think the Chinese government may play a role in…

> Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0].

Why "Chinese student protesting" is labeled as "spying". Dalai does want to make a part of China become independent. Without going into the debate into the legitimacy of this claim, can a country's citizen express their own emotion through the right channel? What makes them spy?!

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#150

Post by caretoomuch »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #130

> The real reason for Hong Kong's decline, is the failure/irresponsibility of Hong Kong's elite ruling class Sounds like a narrative that Beijing would very much support, Mr. New Account. Get people to hate their local govt and appeal to a higher authority for support. Brilliant.

> Sounds like a narrative that Beijing would very much support, Mr. New Account.

I'm offering my opinion on this issue. If you don't agree with me on the real reason for HK's decline, explain your point, or pick holes in my arguments. I don't see how labeling what I said as "approved by Beijing" - disregard how ridiculous it is - automatically disqualifies them.

Also, as to Mr. New Account, I use a throwaway account for the exact reason that I figured some people would get offended by what I said.

> Get people to hate their local govt and appeal to a higher authority for support. Brilliant.

The snarkiness in your comments really made me hesitant to reply, but if you are still interested in a civil discussion: please recheck what I wrote, and point out exact where I suggested Hong Kong people should hate their local government, and appeal to a higher authority.

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